Would there be a reason to love god if there was no hell?

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Never mind answers, this is really about opinion. It's a war of opinion. One of the oldest of its kind. We're like two halves of a riddle with no answer, you and I. That's what we are. You've been true to your convictions and I admire you for it. I do not expect you to suddenly come over to my side, nor can I be expected to do the same.

Random thought: A lot of questions seem to come down to wether you believe in absolute or relative morality.

I think I'm going to go start a thread on this topic and watch people stake out their positions and shoot word-bullets at each other.

So you feel you are under attack? I am merely wondering about your ability to accept strange things. Evidently this makes you defensive. Ideas are not enemies. They are merely conjectures to be reckoned with.

Basically, what I am trying to tell you that life is full of terrors, horrors and frightful losses as well a the incredible beauty that inlay much of the fantastic real universe. You cannot see the wonders of the light unless you acknowledge the reality of the darkness. When my wonderful son died after thirty years of paraplegia I was gratified by the fun and delight in what life had still left us and I felt only disgust when religious people tried to tell me that somewhere my son still existed in a disney marshmallow world in their silly version of an afterlife. The loss of my son made me fully aware of how wonderful the time with him was and I needed no narcotic philosophy to deprive me of the full intensity of his loss. Life is full of wonder and horror and my time here must be felt in its full intensity to understand how great it is to be alive. I only feel sadness that you would deprive yourself of this sense of wonder at the short time we are each merely and fantastically aware.

Last edited by Sand on 22 Apr 2008, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

I don't believe in this entirely, but possibly to a certain extent.

Um, I'm not just some young punk, sir! I'm 36 years old, and you can't threaten me, I'm entitled to my opinion. All you really have to do in life is be good to each other, and in general not act like a d**khead.

Remember what Confucious said: 'What you don't want to have done to you, don't do to others.' That's what I live by. Look into him.

This is just a guess but it seems to me that people who believe in hell and the inherent evil quality of humans (whatever the cause) believe that you have to frighten people to make them behave properly. As a kid I always figured that people behave properly because, in general, we couldn't live together decently if we didn't. As I have grown older I have learned that people differ. On the average most people behave decently because they feel good about behaving well. Some very clever sons of b*****s such as those basically behind the economic problems in the world will do anything for personal gain. There are, of course, quite a few of these in powerful positions. I sincerely doubt that hell holds any reality for them but that is a matter of individuality. Humans are a very mixed bag and particular circumstances are very much in control of individual behavior.

Despite the carrot and the stick system being great for despots and mafia rulers, it's completely devoid of reality.

Also, the Christian carrot doesn't taste very good (if this world has no meaning, how can afterlife be given meaning?) they had to make sure the stick was extra hurtful, to compensate.

To all those who think hell serves no purpose, please answer this question: Would you really want to see Pol Pot in heaven?

Since Pol Pot was not a Christian, neither he nor Moses probably would never be considered. I doubt an eternity on a red hot grill would satisfy his victims. Eternal revenge is a Christian concept.

It would satisfy me. If hell exists, he is going to hell, regardless of his militant atheism. Our beliefs do not determine truth. Likewise, if there is no god, he won't materialize due to my faith. Whether or not there is a creator, heaven, or hell, humans do not determine the facts.

Just one little detail, you presume the lie originates with God. Contrary to popular belief the existance of a special hell God throws people who don't believe into is far from universal among Christians and if you cared to study the history of the christian church you would find that is was certainly not an original doctrine. Read the gospels Jesus's scathing attacks and dire warnings are aimed at the religous leaders who were using threats of hell. Even then the interpretations of the message being an eternal hell comes down to funny arguments about ages and when is the last age as the literal text is for an age and an age (ie a long time). In any case in most cases Jesus explicitly stated that the sinful would be DESTROYED but this is ignored.

For many the ultimate fate of the universe is to return to God. We are all heading to the same place and it is only our own nature - what we have become - which will determine how we experience this situation. The question might simply be: how much of you would still manage to exist in this new state?

Unfortunately, in the minds of a lot of people Christian beliefs are those held by the Catholics (and its various offspring-branches from the last few hundred years).

Funny thing is that those who teach an eternal hell really believe that is the only way people would love God, but through the ages there have always been Christian who have loved God without any "or else..." threat to compell them.

That's like saying, would you love your parents if they didn't give you spankings? Of course you would, they are the reason you exist. You also wouldn't exist if God hadn't decided He wanted to make you, so you pretty much owe Him at least some recognition, if not love.

Why did he decide to create you? He doesn't need you. The answer is the same reason your parents decided to have a baby (you) in the first place. Because He is overflowing with love, and He wants people to share His love with. So the reason you exist is to love Him. If you don't, then you have no reason to exist, like a pen that doesn't write anymore.

When your pen runs out of ink and doesn't write anymore, it is useless. All you can do is throw it out in the garbage can. That is what Hell is, it's the garbage can for useless souls, who refused to serve their purpose in life.

There are many people who cannot stand their parents and many parents who cannot stand their children. Love is not automatic. It has to be deserved and, although I am an atheist it is not because I hat God. It is because the concept of God as presented in many religious doctrines is ludicrous and is superfluous to reality. It has been disastrous both in history and currently.

I realize not everyone has a good relationship with their parents, I was using that sort of idealized analogy due to time constraints, yet the theological truths I was trying to convey remain the same. Truth does not change no matter how many people choose to believe it or not. I tried to answer what appeared to be a sincere theological question to the best of my ability, according to what I believe is true. I have every right to do that.

I believe it is not the belief in God, but the disbelief, which has been disastrous through history. Evil is not a thing in itself, it is merely the lack of good. Sorry, but I don't feel like tackling a whole lot of religious issues here. I just felt like contributing my viewpoint, like everybody else.

Which god? There are several.

ruveyn