Too sexy for my Burka

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The hijab can only prevent sexual abuse or harassment to a certain extent, its main purpose is for men to treat a woman for who she is - a human being.

Now for those who argue about whether the hijab can prevent rape or molestation, you must note that there are different kinds of perverts, who are mainly divided into two broad categories - those who commit the crime on the spur of the moment, and those who plan ahead. The hijab prevents the former from commiting the crime in most cases, but if they're hell bent on committing the crime, it can't be helped. You say that social liberalization and egalitarian compassion is the only strategy to combat violence against women. If so, why is rape more common than pickpocketing in the US, even though only approximately 1 in 10 cases of rape are reported to the police? Here in India, a woman is raped every hour (or so the statistics pointed out half a decade ago, it may have doubled or tripled by now). The rate of sexual violence is far lesser in Muslim countries. Prevention is better than a cure.

Where did you get that statistic?

Sexist harassment is ugly (or as the Buddhists might say, "unskilful") no matter which gender is perpetrating it. It's drawing a long bow to call ^this^ "rape", though, for mine.



The view from the blogosphere:

http://whateveritisimagainstit.blogspot.com/1997/09/in-olden-days-glimpse-of-stocking.html

Warning: If you like Dubya, and you have a tendency to high blood pressure, DON'T GO THERE.

Most of the arguments coming from Muslims aren't very convincing to me. I've heard that Hijab prevents rape, and that it is mandated. Neither of them is true. To me such arguments (Hijab-less woman is more prone to being raped) is perverse and absurd. Neither the argument that a woman without Hijab is less modest.



About rape: the truth is that there IS NO rape statistic in muslims countries (if any credible). The ones that I've read are done independently. Not to mention it is not a concise science as many women won't speak of their rape.

I did read somewhere that in the Scandinavian countries, a Muslim is more prone to rape than a non-muslim. Strange, isn't it? I guess it is all those hijab-less women.

The justification for the forced wearing of a burka on the basis that it prevents rape is on the same level of forcing everybody to wear a bullet proof vest to keep from being shot. Any society that tolerates individuals who either rape or shoot at whatever minor inclination drives their immature minds is a highly defective society and the fault is with the society, not the individual who is forced to cower in a tent to prevent assault. You are blaming the victim.

I Seriously hope that you are joking oscuria. If you arent than you are SERIOUSLY mixed up. Maybe you're just subservient man who thinks putting women on a pedestal and exalting them as the "fair" sex will enable you to get thing from them.........

BTW: the MOST effective way for women to prevent rape is through deterrence. There's no doubt in my mind that rapists STRONGLY prefer their victims unarmed.Hint hint...........

Last edited by D1nk0 on 21 May 2008, 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Doo wop shoo bop?

Nice Bullsh1t artistry

What are you talking about?

Women get raped no matter what they wear. The same can go for a man even though I don't hear very many stories about them.

Rapes usually happen randomly. Most people don't even talk about them for fear of danger or embarassment. That's a very sick way of putting that as though women in general deserve what they get. No one deserves to be raped and humans have free will for self control in that regard, if they don't they're most likely a danger to society whether there's laws against them or not which is why most of them are locked up. It's been statistically proven that there's no cure for people who do such acts on those who are vulernable espeacially pedos.

Rape is very different than casual sex. There's a huge difference dinko.

Last edited by MissConstrue on 21 May 2008, 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Hmm, that is interesting. Baba Ali considers it oppression to have to wear a shirt and tie, and go to work "in a crowded office with broken A/C and a bunch of sweaty people." No argument there! Having to ride on public transport, same problem. There should be a law or something.

"Only [Allah] knows why you wear hijab.... He's the only one who knows what your real intention is." So why, then, does Baba Ali go on to enumerate a long list of so-called "hijab attempts", ways in which he thinks the hijab is worn improperly? Surely this is up to Allah to determine?

Or then again, this could be yet another instance of an arrogant bloke trying to determine, on women's behalf, what is or isn't appropriate for them to wear. And justifying his own undiscipline and bad behaviour by claiming to be an unwilling victim of temptation.

Well Of Course! WTF made you think I was implying that what women wear has ANYTHING to do with the risk of being Raped??? It was NOT I who injected the subject of rape into this thread! I was defending the muslim dress code and others brought up the Rape issue.

The goal of the hijab is to "not look sexy". Make-up, revealing hair (like Benazir Bhutto), etc, is not the correct hijab. The women who generally wear this kind of hijab only do so to please their parents. For example, there's a girl in my class who wears her hijab outside college, but removes it when she enters. Sure, it's upto Allah to determine, but it's a common understanding with learned Muslims that there must be no immediate sexual thoughts upon looking at a hijabi. Problem is, most conservative Muslims force their daughters to wear the hijab, with this being the result. Forcing someone to do something goes against the Quran, they don't realise what they're doing is a big sin as well.

Baba Ali is not trying to impose his beliefs or principle. He was a neopagan, lol, and used to have a gf with purple hair. He's just reminding his brothers and sisters about following what he has learned to be the correct way (reminding himself before that). For the hijab video, he did so in order to remind himself on teaching his daughter about it as she grows up. There's a personal reason behind his videos in season 1 &2.

What really is Hijab anyways?


No one really knows what the dress code was in the 7th century. I would consider it foolish to assume that the dress for muslims remained unchanged like Egyptian art throughout the centuries. There is nothing that I've read in the Qur'an that explicitly orders muslim women to wear Hijab. I'm no Islamic scholar but from what my eyes see they show me that the Hijab was meant for the wives of Muhammad, which makes sense. To claim "It is Sunnah" or "It's in Authentic Hadith", fardh, etc. is not convincing since there is no way of knowing if it's authentic or even Sunnah. Not to mention that in my opinion it is ridiculous to source an outside book as authority when you've already got a "perfect" one to begin with. That to me just says "Well, Allah didn't intend Qur'an to be authoritative and final."

005.099
YUSUFALI: The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
PICKTHAL: The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message). Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.
SHAKIR: Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

043.003
YUSUFALI: We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand.
SHAKIR: Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

Why a need for hadith?



Here is the clearest commandment:

033.058
YUSUFALI: And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.
PICKTHAL: And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin.
SHAKIR: And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.
033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now, what I have a problem is this: If a woman is not known to be a believer, does that mean she is free to be raped? or that you can look upon her with lust?

OF COURSE NOT!!

024.030
YUSUFALI: Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
PICKTHAL: Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
SHAKIR: Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.


I really don't get the argument I usually hear. Must be because I'm not what they'd consider Muslim.

oscuria, I too don't follow the hadith. There's a lot of controvery around the hadith, in every Islamic school of thought. I personally don't follow any particular sect, I follow my own interpretation of Islam. For example, I pray in a sunni manner, accepted the sunni view of the caliphate (essentially democratic), accepted the shi'a view of nikah mutah (temporary marriage), accepted many Ibadi views, etc. The hadith is basically a compilation of works by the companions of the prophet, and centre around his lifestyle. The authenticity of the hadith can't be guarenteed however, it is not at all necessary to follow them, and thus, I have rejected them.

Basically, every Muslim understands that the basic requirement for the hijab is as follows - cover the whole body, except face and hands. The burka is actually a Zoroastrian dress, it was adopted after the conquest of the Sassanid Empire, as Muslims considered it ideal for guarding a woman's modesty. This is the pre-Islamic clothing of Arab women in the Hejaz:



After conversion to Islam, Arab women continued to wear the same clothes, wrapping their upper torso, hands, and head with a cloth.

The rights of women to be equal in society have been a long time coming in all societies and although strict Muslim societies are, in general, tougher on women than most, the spread in compensation for work is still quite evident in the most liberal of societies even today.
Voting for women came very late in the USA after a hard struggle and the general lack of powerful women in US politics is in stark contrast to other western countries. And even the basic rights to own and control property came about only in the last century.

But the right to dress as one pleases strikes me as rather peculiar. Are there any Muslim proclamations as to how men should dress? The recent statement by a Muslim holy man that an exposed woman is like raw meat for flies has strange implications for Muslim men. Does it mean that Muslim men are expected to have so little control over their emotions that they have the brains of flies? The easy and horrible violence in the area might seem to indicate this but I have known and befriended Muslims and they seem to be decent human beings who would be highly insulted by this comparison.

From what i read someplace i can't remember, the burqa and most types of veil are actually pretty recent in islam religion, it's been implemented so early as 1900 i think, and it was mostly because some of the princes at that time had very lavishly clothed women, which in turn tempted other women to look gorgeous as they did. Hence how it is today.

Also, doing a work on Pakistan for this session, it's curious how people in some islam countries vie for democraty but can't seem to reach it... interesting fact also (more or less known from the average person) is that apparently talibans are using the tribal zones near the Afghanistan border to launch their attacks, and since the Pakistan army has left the place, they've taken over, recruiting people to their organization. Amusing still, how the US government wants to keep Musharraf in place even though he's doing nothing in those zones. I'd have expected somewhat better from the USAs who prone to be the leaders of "democracy" to support an old autoritarian general instead of the two parties that are trying to have relatively democratic procedures.