Penetrative Sex Only when Willing to Raise a Child

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Penetrative Sex

Only when ready, able and willing to raise a child	3%	[ 2 ]
Only in long-term relationships in which may eventually want to have children	9%	[ 6 ]
Only when think that a relationship may be long-term	28%	[ 19 ]
Only after a few dates	3%	[ 2 ]
Whenever it is available with someone you are attracted to	36%	[ 24 ]
Whenever it is available	21%	[ 14 ]
Never/only with the same sex/other option	0%	[ 0 ]

Total votes : 67

ThatRedHairedGrrl
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04 Dec 2008, 4:38 pm

ouinon wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Only abstinence from penetrative/penile-vaginal sex is necessary, not abstinence from all other sexual activity.

That's a big part of the problem of changing anyone's paradigm on this front. The pleasurable non-penetrative acts are exactly the ones many religions regard as sinful and forbidden. I forget which papal encyclical it was in, but one Catholic decree described all forms of foreplay as 'lewd acts' - even when done by a married couple about to have potentially reproductive intercourse! And, I gather from things I've read that many Protestant churches regard putting a penis anywhere other than its 'rightful' place as, again, something that's wrong even if it's between husband and wife. I suspect, although I don't know, that other major faiths have their own rules on the subject - perhaps someone here can clarify?

You'd have a lot of trouble getting round that kind of opposition. (And it's seeped into secular life, too. Ponder, if you will, the reason why this lady http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joycelyn_Elders lost her post. I happen to agree with her, actually. There is one form of totally safe sex other than abstinence, it's a lot more fun, it's better preparation for anything you may do with a partner later on, and we now know it doesn't make you go blind, so what's not to like?)

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Macbeth
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04 Dec 2008, 11:09 pm

ouinon wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

Tens then Hundreds of thousands, make up your mind, or better still get some actual stats rather than grabbing emotional figures from thin air.

The number of abortions in the year 2000 in the USA alone was 1.31 million.

( The number of abortions each year in the USA is higher than/almost three times the number of people who die of cancers. Which makes the warning on tobacco packets; "Smoking may, [ that is potentially ], seriously damage your health" look paltry, compared to the kind of warning they should put on penile-vaginal sex).

Quote:

Yes abortion is a big deal, which is made worse by nut jobs picketing the clinics.

I don't think that that is the most upsetting aspect of having an abortion. Do you, really?

Macbeth wrote:

It's only potentially a reproductive act.

When someone engages in penile-vaginal sex for fun, for companionship, or because "it is what one does", they are doing something which may/potentially create life. It doesn't matter what the figures are exactly; most people, particularly women, know/understand, ( consciously or not ) how "dangerous"/life-changing sex is/can be, and, in the jungle of modern sexual relationships many women may well be choosing and/or reserving themselves for the men/man who seem to promise good genes and/or support/protection.

If sex was clearly understood/perceived to be of two kinds, one ( penile-vaginal ) with children in mind, and one ( all the other stuff) with only fun and companionship in mind, it is possible that many people currently living alone, or choosing alpha/safe partners, because ( penetrative ) sex is dangerous/risky, would take/find partners, ( or different ones) .
.

I'm getting the feeling you don't get all that much sex. I may be wrong, but I suspect I am not.
Very little penetrative sex ends in childbirth. Fact. Lots of people get laid daily, and have NO children. FACT. Lots of people want children and cant have them. Also FACT.

Penile/vaginal sex is a lot of fun, and very pleasurable. Try it. You might like it. It so does not cause children, barring mistake or disaster. Also, try posting with less / because it makes more sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say, and your case is failing because of that. Be more coherent, and maybe less babies will happen. Though I doubt it, because sex is essentially fun. And you are killing that fun with your bizarre sex-envy.

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Sand
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05 Dec 2008, 1:59 am

The initiator of this thread has indicated that there is no sane way to enforce sexual behavior except to persuade people to see to it they behave sensibly and rationally. Strong religious forces in the USA actively discourage sexual education and the use of many practical preventative measures for unwanted pregnancy so the only hope is for people to act with full understanding and rationality to prevent unwanted pregnancy. History has fully demonstrated that humans do not, in general, act either logically or with much forethought as to consequences and the sexual drive very frequently throws reason out the window very easily. The discussion, frankly, makes little sense in the face of reality.

DentArthurDent
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05 Dec 2008, 3:43 am

ouinon wrote:

The number of abortions in the year 2000 in the USA alone was 1.31 million.

So what, where is the stat regarding failed contraception?

DentArthurDent wrote:

Yes abortion is a big deal, which is made worse by nut jobs picketing the clinics.

ouinon wrote:

I don't think that that is the most upsetting aspect of having an abortion. Do you, really?

NO, but the pro lifers make a emotionally hard decision far worse

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ouinon
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05 Dec 2008, 4:34 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

The number of abortions in the year 2000 in the USA alone was 1.31 million.

So what, where is the stat regarding failed contraception?

A recent study in Australia found that 70 % of women seeking abortion do so because of failed contraception. On average 19 out of every 1000 women, ( the figure is 33 out of every 1000 for women in their twenties), in Australia have had an abortion in their lifetime, which means that about 14 women out of every 1000 have had an abortion at some time because of failed contraception.

Contraception is simply not a guarantee of protection. The risk is real.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 05 Dec 2008, 7:04 am, edited 5 times in total.

ouinon
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05 Dec 2008, 4:54 am

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Only abstinence from penetrative/penile-vaginal sex is necessary, not abstinence from all other sexual activity.

The pleasurable non-penetrative acts are exactly the ones many religions regard as sinful and forbidden. One Catholic decree described all forms of foreplay as 'lewd acts', ... and many Protestant churches regard putting a penis anywhere other than its 'rightful' place as something that's wrong even if it's between husband and wife. And it's seeped into secular life, too.

That would certainly explain why so many people seem to think that the only acceptable/"real" kind of sex is the penetrative, penile-vaginal, kind, but it is amazing to realise that religious dogma still has such control over people's attitudes in this area.

It is interesting how taboo works. People think that they are freely engaging in what they want to do, but are in fact mindlessly/automatically obeying laws laid down by others. Religious taboo against non-penetrative, ( and penetration when not vaginal ), acts of sex has the effect of making non-penetrative sex seem insubstantial/non-existent, inadequate, almost invisible.

Quote:

You'd have a lot of trouble getting round that kind of opposition.

Yes, I imagine it might be as hard to establish non-(vaginally) penetrative sex as a sexuality in its own right as it was for homosexuality to become partly accepted, decriminalised etc. Non-(vaginally) penetrative sexuality seems to have been so denied and forbidden that many, perhaps most, people don't even "see" it, ( except as "side-dish"/foreplay to the "main" event ).

Quote:

Ponder, if you will, the reason why this lady http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joycelyn_Elders lost her post.

I did ponder. What an irony, her being fired for such attitudes while working for Clinton. But then he did try to argue that non-vaginal penetration wasn't "real sex". Thanks for the link.
.

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06 Dec 2008, 10:32 am

ouinon wrote:

which means that about 14 women out of every 1000 have had an abortion at some time because of failed contraception.

Contraception is simply not a guarantee of protection. The risk is real.
.

People risk death every day making left turns at intersections with worse odds. Think about how impossible it would be to make people stop doing that, compound it by imagining if the activity was one of the most enjoyable things they will experience in their lives and you're trying to stop a train by blowing at it.

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slowmutant
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06 Dec 2008, 10:43 am

Averick wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Averick wrote:

This sorta sounds like Nazi talk.

psh, killing the jews won't come into play until AFTER the circumcision discussion comes to a grinding halt in stalemate.

You just made me laugh, skafather. Good for you.

That is not funny.

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06 Dec 2008, 10:52 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

.

Tens then Hundreds of thousands, make up your mind, or better still get some actual stats rather than grabbing emotional figures from thin air.

Yes abortion is a big deal, which is made worse by nut jobs picketing the clinics.

They aren't nutjobs. They're people of conscience.

Fraya
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06 Dec 2008, 11:05 am

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

.

They aren't nutjobs. They're people of conscience.

Who act like nutjobs.

Murdered doctors, firebombed clinics, physical assault of patients attempting to enter clinics... should I go on?

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DentArthurDent
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06 Dec 2008, 3:18 pm

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

.

They aren't nutjobs. They're people of conscience.

They have no conscience, if they did they would not traumatize those using the clinics who are already in an emotionally fragile state. Pro-lifers who picket abortion clinics are SCUM

@ Fraya - Nice rebuttal :wink:

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06 Dec 2008, 4:33 pm

:arrow:
.

Last edited by ouinon on 06 Dec 2008, 4:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

slowmutant
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06 Dec 2008, 4:34 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

.

They aren't nutjobs. They're people of conscience.

Again I disagree, but such an argument can't be settled here.

ouinon
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06 Dec 2008, 4:36 pm

ouinon wrote:

When someone engages in penile-vaginal penetrative sex for fun or companionship, or because "it is what one does" they are doing something which may create life. ... Most people, ( particularly women ) , understand, consciously or not, how dangerous/lifechanging sex is/can be, and, in the jungle of modern sexual relationships, [ in which it is assumed that will engage in penile-vaginal sex at some point, whether or not want children ], many women may be be instinctively choosing and/or reserving themselves for the men who seem to promise good genes, and/or support/protection, as a result.

Fraya wrote:

Think about how impossible it would be to make people stop doing that.

A lot of people felt very similarly about votes for women. "Men would never give up their privileges". It was "a ridiculous idea", etc.

It is not an argument.
.

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06 Dec 2008, 4:37 pm

ouinon wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Think about how impossible it would be to make people stop doing that.

A lot of people felt very similarly about votes for women. "Men would never give up their privileges". It was "a ridiculous idea", etc.

It is not an argument.
.

Sex just isn't that dangerous most of the time.

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ouinon
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06 Dec 2008, 4:44 pm

Macbeth wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Most people, ( particularly women ) , understand, consciously or not, how dangerous/lifechanging sex is/can be, and, in the jungle of modern sexual relationships, many women may be be instinctively choosing and/or reserving themselves for the men who seem to promise good genes, and/or support/protection, as a result.

Sex just isn't that dangerous most of the time.

If you are a woman the threat of motherhood or an abortion is real, every time you have penile-vaginal penetrative sex. If you are a man it probably doesn't seem so dangerous "most of the time".
.

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