Denying the holocaust
Concenik
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But: The proof that millions of Jews were factory-like murdered is so overwhelming, that the denial of this basic fact can be only used for specific reasons; To whitewash Hitler & co.
That's DEFINITELY not my motivation for 'daring' to risk being labelled as such for asking question nor do I think it was Daniel Coles' tbh
And contrary to waht you believe - I believe the evidence, when scrutinised - is NOT overwhelming at all!
Do you know there is a poor estonian(?) jew - an old man - that claims that his friend Eli Wiesenthal rescued him from certain death in a camp once and that the internationally renowned figure of Eli Wiesenthal is NOT the same person? He has been kept quiet! Perhaps you have been had..
I will try and find this these articles tonight so I cannot be accused of being meaningless by Arthur.
Perhaps it isn't in doubt that the Nazi's were abominable only that the history of ww2 is somewhat askew.
My child is German and I patently refuse to let him be inculcated with a life long guilt by the education system here.
The data all NEEDS to be reviewed if only because it has come to light in recent years that the OSS ans NKVD DID concoct false evidence.
It is a REAL SHAME that the red cross documents at Bad Arolsen were taken out of public circulation as soon as contrary evidence to your claims started to appear.
The holocaust in utilised as an emotive political vehicle for leverage and it is time that that was STOPPED - I am only agreeing with Finkelstein!! !
Last edited by Concenik on 30 Mar 2009, 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Concenik
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I agree with your second sentiment garyw..
The first may be often so..but I am not 'denying' the holocaust - and challenging the majority view certainly isn't convenient, believe me! especially not living here in Germany
It would be far more convenient to just shut up and nod, agree and tow the line - but I will not do that because I want to keep my integrity
That's DEFINITELY not my motivation for 'daring' to risk being labelled as such for asking question nor do I think it was Daniel Coles' tbh
Oh it is the case - It is the best documented case here in Britain is the case of David Irving, held at the Queen's Bench at High Court. Justice Gray concluded:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/judg ... irving.htm
The Court of Appeal upheld the judgement. Go through the list of deniers and you will see all of those have connections with the extreme right.
Do you know there is a poor estonian ...
We are talking not regarding single cases, but about millions. The evidence is overwhelming. Legally it had be proven to greatest extent at a German court in the so-called Auschwitz-Prozesse (Ausschwitz Trails) in Frankfurt in 1960s. I which the evidence was under the scrutiny of the law. In his revision the Federal Court of Justice overruled the Frankfurt Court in the interpretation of the facts, but not in the finding of the facts as been established in the judgement.
Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
(?) jew that claims that his friend Eli Wiesenthal rescued him from certain death in a camp once and that the internationally renowned figure of Eli Wiesenthal is NOT the same person? Perhaps you have been had..
I will try and find this these articles tonight so I cannot be accused of being meaningless by Arthur.
Perhaps it isn't in doubt that the Nazi's were abominable only that the history of ww2 is somewhat askew.
It is part of the German history. We can't talk about Immanuel Kant or Berthold von Henneberg or Archbishop von Dasseln and be silent about this chapter. Germany was for centuries a quite decent nation. Even managed to solve the religious question in 16th century with a compromise in 1555, whilst in France and Endgand the solution was often massacrer. Even developed orderly proceedings to impeach the emperor in 13th century. For German therefore the question must be, why this decent and cultivated nation went so wrong in such a short period.
"Guilt" is something individual - responsibility not.
Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
The well known figure of six million came from Nazi paper work and records. Whatever else is true of the Nazis, they kept very good records. Deutsche ordenung?
ruveyn
Concenik
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Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
The well known figure of six million came from Nazi paper work and records. Whatever else is true of the Nazis, they kept very good records. Deutsche ordenung?
ruveyn
really? I claim bullsh*t on that - prove it to me this, please 'well known' does not mean TRUE
Concenik
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That's DEFINITELY not my motivation for 'daring' to risk being labelled as such for asking question nor do I think it was Daniel Coles' tbh
Oh it is the case - It is the best documented case here in Britain is the case of David Irving, held at the Queen's Bench at High Court. Justice Gray concluded:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/judg ... irving.htm
The Court of Appeal upheld the judgement. Go through the list of deniers and you will see all of those have connections with the extreme right.
Do you know there is a poor estonian ...
We are talking not regarding single cases, but about millions. The evidence is overwhelming. Legally it had be proven to greatest extent at a German court in the so-called Auschwitz-Prozesse (Ausschwitz Trails) in Frankfurt in 1960s. I which the evidence was under the scrutiny of the law. In his revision the Federal Court of Justice overruled the Frankfurt Court in the interpretation of the facts, but not in the finding of the facts as been established in the judgement.
Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
(?) jew that claims that his friend Eli Wiesenthal rescued him from certain death in a camp once and that the internationally renowned figure of Eli Wiesenthal is NOT the same person? Perhaps you have been had..
I will try and find this these articles tonight so I cannot be accused of being meaningless by Arthur.
Perhaps it isn't in doubt that the Nazi's were abominable only that the history of ww2 is somewhat askew.
It is part of the German history. We can't talk about Immanuel Kant or Berthold von Henneberg or Archbishop von Dasseln and be silent about this chapter. Germany was for centuries a quite decent nation. Even managed to solve the religious question in 16th century with a compromise in 1555, whilst in France and Endgand the solution was often massacrer. Even developed orderly proceedings to impeach the emperor in 13th century. For German therefore the question must be, why this decent and cultivated nation went so wrong in such a short period.
"Guilt" is something individual - responsibility not.
Ok, for a start my 3 year old bears NO RESPONSIBILITY for what happened in Germany during the NSDAP regime. NONE. Maybe that is your guilt talking?
Davis Irving is a w*nker - let's be clear - but he and a bunch of other crypto nazis are NOT the summation of the entire research community revising events of the second world war.
Did you happen to watch the film I suggested by the Jewish man David Cole - who asserts that the 6,000,000 figure is a myth?
Well he did assert it before he went into hiding because the JDL have put a price on his head.
In terms of basing TRUTH and FACT solely on court judgements is ludicrous. As Oscar Wilde said ' the law is an ass'
and I trust the UK courts and the German ones for that matter as far as I could throw them in terms of impartiality and integral oversight - they are clearly jockeyed by pervasive political leverage from string pullers.
means nought to me. As said Irving is a puke - it doesn't negate the findings contrary to the officially accepted version of events
Earlier in this thread I predicted that someone would claim that all holocaust revision is simply the work of nazi sympathisers and crypto nazis - you have fulfilled that prediction.
It is tired now to keep on reciting that same old adage to nlock any debate into the matter.
It's mental censorship - I believe in open mindedness
This whole matter could be put to rest finally very simply and it only involves taking soil samples from the so called death camps and having them analysed unfortunately even single request submitted to carry out such experiments has been blocked by the German Government and Polish governments respectively under pressure exerted from lobbyists claiming it to be obscene 'to the memory of the 6,000,000' gimme a break, it would stop revisionists in their tracks if the results confirmed the official accounts of history.
How much have you actually looked into this other than being familiar with court cases and rulings?
in friendliness..
Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
The well known figure of six million came from Nazi paper work and records. Whatever else is true of the Nazis, they kept very good records. Deutsche ordenung?
ruveyn
really? I claim bullsh*t on that - prove it to me this, please 'well known' does not mean TRUE
Burden of proof's in your court.
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Concenik
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Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
The well known figure of six million came from Nazi paper work and records. Whatever else is true of the Nazis, they kept very good records. Deutsche ordenung?
ruveyn
Really??? Can you show me where to look for myself for this PROOF?? I think that you are absolutely mistaken and it is just something you have heard and believe.
Why would IBM go to such lengths to database everyone if the nazis were just intent on slaughtering people?
As far as my research has gone looking into this matter the ONLY document that says anything about the 'final solution' is the Wannsee document and it is CLEARLY a piece of NKVD propaganda
Whoever wrote it couldn't even write in German properly
Concenik
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Besides this: There are tons of paperwork and file from this time, listing in detail which people had been killed, transported, what happened to their property etc. pp. The archives are full.
The well known figure of six million came from Nazi paper work and records. Whatever else is true of the Nazis, they kept very good records. Deutsche ordenung?
ruveyn
really? I claim bullsh*t on that - prove it to me this, please 'well known' does not mean TRUE
Burden of proof's in your court.
rubbish YOU are the one making the claim 6,000,00 people were killed - the burden is ON YOU in terms of debate
Concenik
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"Guilt" is something individual - responsibility not.
If it's responsibility you want then you might want to look into the surrender documents of the Germans in comparison to the Japanese.
Point being the Japanese government and military had to sign a surrender agreement
but
In Germany only the Wehrmacht
the NSDAP NEVER officially surrended nor were required to - strange no?
that meant they and their apparatus could still function quite legitimately, underground obviously, without legal reprisal..
weird eh?
Why did it take 50 YEARS after the war for IG Farben combine to be actually liquidated in corporate law?
What did Martin Bormann set up after he was made Reichsleiter and transferred amazing amount of money and scientific research documents out of Germany?
If it's responsibility you want you should look into the POSTwar activities of the nazi party - it wasn't just the case that Stalin and Trueman stole all the 'scientists' from the courts
How do you know what corporate influence the NSDAP might not STILL today hold huge power today?
The world's messed up and it is partially because people walk round in a dream called 'reality' that's given to them and they never question anything about it imsho
The Nazi doctor Josef Mengele is responsible for the astonishing number of twins in a small Brazilian town, an Argentine historian has claimed.
By Nick Evans in Buenos Aires
The steely hearted "Angel of Death", whose mission was to create a master race fit for the Third Reich, was the resident medic at Auschwitz from May 1943 until his flight in the face of the Red Army advance in January 1945.
His task was to carry out experiments to discover by what method of genetic quirk twins were produced – and then to artificially increase the Aryan birthrate for his master, Adolf Hitler.
Now, a historian claims, Mengele's notorious experiments may have borne fruit.
For years scientists have failed to discover why as many as one in five pregnancies in a small Brazilian town have resulted in twins – most of them blond haired and blue eyed.
But residents of Candido Godoi now claim that Mengele made repeated visits there in the early 1960s, posing at first as a vet but then offering medical treatment to the women of the town.
Shuttling between Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil, he managed to evade justice before his death in 1979, but his dreams of a Nazi master race appeared unfulfilled.
In a new book, Mengele: the Angel of Death in South America, the Argentine historian Jorge Camarasa, a specialist in the post-war Nazi flight to South America, has painstakingly pieced together the Nazi doctor's mysterious later years.
After speaking to the townspeople of Candido Godoi, he is convinced that Mengele continued his genetic experiments with twins – with startling results.
He reveals how, after working with cattle farmers in Argentina to increase their stock, Mengele fled the country after fellow Nazi, Adolf Eichmann, was kidnapped by Israeli agents.
He claims that Mengele found refuge in the German enclave of Colonias Unidas, Paraguay, and from there, in 1963, began to make regular trips to another predominantly German community just over the border in Brazil – the farming community of Candido Godoi.
And, Mr Camaras claims, it was here that soon after the birthrate of twins began to spiral.
"I think Candido Godoi may have been Mengele's laboratory, where he finally managed to fulfil his dreams of creating a master race of blond haired, blue eyed Aryans," he said.
"There is testimony that he attended women, followed their pregnancies, treated them with new types of drugs and preparations, that he talked of artificial insemination in human beings, and that he continued working with animals, proclaiming that he was capable of getting cows to produce male twins."
The urbane German who arrived in Candido Godoi was remembered with fondness by many of the townspeople.
"He told us he was a vet," said Aloisi Finkler, a local farmer interviewed by Mr Camarasa. "He asked about illnesses we had among our animals, and told us not to worry, he could cure them. He appeared a cultured and dignified man."
Another farmer, Leonardo Boufler, said: "He went from farm to farm checking the animals. He checked them for TB, and injected those that were infected. He said he could carry out artificial insemination of cows and humans, which we thought impossible as in those days it was unheard of."
But the Nazi eugenicist did not concentrate on animals alone.
A former mayor and town doctor, Anencia Flores da Silva, set out to try to solve the town's mystery. He interviewed hundreds of people, and discovered one character who crept on cropping up: an itinerant medic calling himself Rudolph Weiss.
Dr da Silva said: "In the testimonies we collected we came across women who were treated by him, he appeared to be some sort of rural medic who went from house to house. He attended women who had varicose veins and gave them a potion which he carried in a bottle, or tablets which he brought with him. Sometimes he carried out dental work, and everyone remembers he used to take blood."
The people of Candido Godoi now largely accept that a Nazi war criminal was an inadvertent guest of theirs for several years in the early 1960s. The town's official crest shows two identical profiles and a road sign welcomes visitors to a "Farming Community and Land of the Twins". There is also a museum, the House of the Twins.
While the twins birthrate varies widely in different countries, it is typically about one in 80 pregnancies – a statistic that has left Mr Camarasa certain in his claim that Mengele was successfully pursuing his dreams of creating a master race, a real-life Boys from Brazil.
"Nobody knows for sure exactly what date Mengele arrived in Candido Godoi, but the first twins were born in 1963, the year in which we first hear reports of his presence," he said.
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... razil.html
Last edited by Concenik on 30 Mar 2009, 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Burden of proof generally lies with the person making the unconventional or new claim when it comes to practical debate.
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I agree with your second sentiment garyw..
The first may be often so..but I am not 'denying' the holocaust - and challenging the majority view certainly isn't convenient, believe me! especially not living here in Germany
It would be far more convenient to just shut up and nod, agree and tow the line - but I will not do that because I want to keep my integrity
Concenik
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Burden of proof generally lies with the person making the unconventional or new claim when it comes to practical debate.
Yes, to my mind it is you making the claim - I say I don't know how many people were murdered by the nazi's you say there is proof of it being 6million - I say ok, prove it.
the burden, in this case is on you in 'practical debate'
So, stop dilly dallying and prove it to me
Concenik
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I agree with your second sentiment garyw..
The first may be often so..but I am not 'denying' the holocaust - and challenging the majority view certainly isn't convenient, believe me! especially not living here in Germany
It would be far more convenient to just shut up and nod, agree and tow the line - but I will not do that because I want to keep my integrity
Yes right. Clearly so. sorry I forget that sometimes - which sucks because I'm an admin too somewhere else. Sorry Gary