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whatever you may think of the late entertainer steve allen, he had a protean mind, and in 1990 he wrote a fascinating book, "steve allen on the bible, religion and morality." in this book he lists many documented [by bible scholars over the centuries] errors in translation, some of which change the meaning of the original text. one example that stuck in my head, was "ratzach" which in hebrew means "murder" - as in "thou shalt not MURDER" which in the king james instead reads "thou shalt not KILL ("harag" in hebrew)." big difference between those two words. don't ask me for more examples as that was 30 years ago i laid eyes on the thing.

I’m not familiar with Allen or his book, but good to know. That is a good example of why we need to know how to study the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I think MAYBE the KJV intended “murder” and perhaps “kill” at the time was meant to be understood in context. The Bible spells out that ALL killing is wrong. It’s just a matter of who takes the blame and who gets punished. A convicted murderer must be put to death. The Biblical view is that capital punishment is a sin; however, it is the murderer’s fault that he MUST be put to death. The elders have nothing to fear since murderers bear the penalty for their own death in addition to the lives they take.

Likewise, killing in self defense is a sin, but the attacker bears the burden of his own death because he tried to harm or kill someone else.

The Bible goes on to explore issues of negligence, involuntary homicide, war, etc., and so the 10 Commandments presuppose what we’ve come to call justifiable homicide, accidental death, and so on. Mosaic law is quite thorough in explaining what is meant by do not murder. Even if you accept the KJV translation “kill,” it has always been understood to mean what we call “murder,” or unjustifiable homicide.

AngelRho, I don't have to.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/don ... tions.html

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resou ... adictions/

https://infidels.org/library/modern/don ... tions.html

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/ ... ons-190303

If a homosexual man helped the homeless, fed the poor, clothed the naked how is he not worthy of heaven? And, are we justified and saved through our faith, works or is it through both faith and works?

Me (as a gay man) *I died.*

Me: *I’m sucked into a white light.*

Me: * I see an old man next to pearly gates. He speaks*

Saint Peter: I am Saint Peter and I’m here to pronounce judgment on you.

Saint Peter: (After going through 5001 sins and barely staying awake)Your sin is an abomination against the lord, the sin of sodomy.
Me: Huh?

Saint Peter: Being a homosexual and taking a man as your partner. Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Me: Hold up! Yes! I was and still am a homosexual but did I not follow the greatest commandment of all which says

Me: Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Me: And, if you look at the parable of the sheep and goats which say

Matthew 25:31-46 New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Me: Did I not do this when I helped many homeless people not only get off drugs but, and not just put them up in a place to stay but I was able to help get them jobs? Did I not rescue people especially women from an abusive situation? In fact, you must know I’m a sorcerer as well. Yet, I helped provide people food and even taught them how to grow their own food even in their own window sill. I used magic to help string things along. Yeah, I did things God told me not to do and I was attracted to other men and had a life partner who was male but did I not love God and love others as well? By loving others doesn’t that according to the parable of the sheep and goats imply I love God. Wasn’t I in his spirit?

Saint Peter: Galatians 2:16 ESV Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Me: Wait a minute though! Didn’t God also say that Faith without works is dead?
Me: Faith Without Works Is Dead

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Saint Peter: Saint Peter: You have been judged unworthy of heaven. Off to the furnace with you.

Me: *Suffers hell’s fire and brimstone for all eternity*.

Scenario 1: What happens if I’m kind and I have to be dishonest to be kind?

Me: *I died!*

Me: * I see a glowing white light and I’m dragged to it.*

Me: *I see a pearly gate and Saint Peter.*

Saint Peter: Hello, I am here to judge you and your sins.

Me: Wait a minute! I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior why am I not judged on that alone?

Saint Peter: *Reads

Faith Without Works Is Dead

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Me: I thought faith alone cut it and we weren’t saved by works. Doesn’t the Bible say this as well?

Saint Peter : I’m here to pronounce judgment on you not debate theology with you.

Me: Thinks to himself “huh, what?”

Saint Peter: *Goes through many of my sins and by the time he is on sin #1000 I’m half asleep and by sin #6001 he yells that’s another sin added for sloth.

Me: *I awake suddenly* Sins are counted at the pearly gates?

Saint Peter: Yes, now onto sin#6002. Again, you were dishonest with your wife when she asked you if she looked fat in her new dress and you answered no.

Me: I don’t understand sir. I followed this verse. Ephesians 4:32 "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." Was I not trying to show love towards her and kindness towards. Was I not supposed to keep the peace in our household? I don’t get it.

Saint Peter: You have been judged unworthy of heaven. Off to the furnace with you.

Me: I don’t even get a say or get to defend myself? Huh? What? Why?

Saint Peter: I don’t make the rules. Our heavenly father does! *Pulls lever*

Me: *Suffers hell’s fire and brimstone for all eternity*.



Scenario 2: What happens if I’m honest but honesty requires unkindness, quarrel and conflict to be honest?

Me: *I died!*

Me: * I see a glowing white light and I’m dragged to it.*

Me: *I see a pearly gate and Saint Peter.*

Saint Peter: Hello, I am here to judge you and your sins.

Me: Wait a minute! I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior why am I not judged on that alone?

Saint Peter: *Reads

Faith Without Works Is Dead

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Me: I thought faith alone cut it and we weren’t saved by works. Doesn’t the Bible say this as well?

Saint Peter : I’m here to pronounce judgment on you not debate theology with you

Me: Thinks to himself “huh, what?”

Saint Peter: *Goes through many of my sins and by the time he is on sin #1000 I’m half asleep and by sin #6001 he yells that’s another sin added for sloth.

Me: *I awake suddenly* Sins are counted at the pearly gates?

Saint Peter: Yes, now onto sin#6002. Again, you were unkind with your wife when she asked you if she looked fat in her new dress and you answered yes.

Me: I don’t understand sir. I followed this verse. Colossians 3:9 ESV “Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices.” Was I not trying to be honest with her? What other choice could I have made in this situation? Do I avoid the question entirely? Would I not lie by omission then? Do I tell her I don’t wish to answer? Refusing to answer would be unkind as well because most people would assume when one lacks an answer it will be the negative answer. I don’t get it. How was I to win?

Saint Peter: You have been judged unworthy of heaven. Off to the furnace with you.

Me: I don’t even get a say or get to defend myself? Huh? What? Why?

Saint Peter: I don’t make the rules. Our heavenly father does! *Pulls lever*

Me: *Suffers hell’s fire and brimstone for all eternity*.

Me (as author not character in skit): How was I to avoid sin and show both absolute love and absolute honesty exactly?

How does God love a cheerful giver if hell exists?

Me: * I decide to convert to Christianity*

Pastor (during service): I call for those who wish to accept Jesus Christ and to those who wish to renew their faith to come to the pulpit.

Pastor: *He goes to each person who formed a line with others* He asks them do you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior?

Me: (He gets to me): Yes sir, I do.

Pastor: *says a prayer*

Pastor: * he has us sit down and continues with the service.

Pastor: *he reads 2 Corinthians 9*

Pastor: Look at verse 7. God wants us to be a cheerful giver. “As every man purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or out of compulsion; for God loveth the cheerful giver.” We not only have to give Jesus Christ our faith, our obedience and our loyalty we have to help the poor, the sick, the destitute and visit the imprisoned. *He started reading Matthew 25:31-46. * We have to be the sheep who does this and not the goats who do not. We have to do this with cheerfulness in our hearts for God so loves a cheerful giver that we may give not grudgingly or out of compulsion.

Me: *confused* If God wants us to truthfully give then aren’t we being compelled to do so out of the fear of eternal damnation and the fire and brimstone of hell? Aren’t we doing so out of the fear of being in the goat group? It seems like by creating this hell and sending others who don’t accept Jesus as his lord and savior and cheerfully give then one is forced to give by compulsion? How does this even make sense? *Fortunately, I’m in the back so I quietly get up, walk out of the service, use the restroom, go to my car, start the engine, and drive to Popeye’s and get a breakfast combo with fried chicken, gravy, biscuits and fries. *

Me: (as author and speaks like Rod Serling while smoking a cigarette, wait a minute I don’t smoke) How does this make sense? How does it make sense for a God and his son who is God to love a cheerful giver yet if we don’t give or accept Jesus as our lord and savior we burn in fire and brimstone for all eternity? How does God truthfully love a cheerful giver at all?

And.... Your words.... Not mine... dun dun dun duh

Incontrovertible proof means, among other things, free of bias. All of those sites quote Bible passages out of order and out of context and are managed by people who likely have an anti-supernatural bias to begin with. I need PROOF, not opinions.

You made the assertion that the Bible is full of errors. That requires PROOF. Please show incontrovertible PROOF that the Bible is full of errors.

If someone accepts Jesus as Savior, the fires of hell are a kinda moot point, aren’t they? Why would a Christian be worried about going to hell?

Who is truthfully free of bias?

And, what context are all these verses supposed to be in? How do you know?

What is the correct order that we're supposed to read this from? How do you know?

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 27 May 2021, 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

You said that there is no universal agreement as to what constitutes evidence or proof? And, if you say among other things Incontrovertible proof means, among other things, free of bias then how do we decide who and what is truthfully free of bias? How do we really know it is really free of bias? How do we decide what is what exactly? What mechanism do we use?

And, if I must be able to prove that the bible is full of contradictions especially if there is no universal agreement as to what proof and evidence is and what is considered free of bias amongst other things then you sir should be able to prove that you're reading the bible as intended and your interpretation and the majority of the Christian's of the Bible is inerrant.

And, you've yet to prove and demonstrate how an entity or object can exist eternally in anyway, shape or form. Can you do this?

Which is it though? Does faith alone get me to heaven and save me from the fires of hell as these verses say here?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/justi ... aith_alone

Or is faith without works dead?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV

Which is it exactly?

If all it takes is for someone to accept Jesus as their lord and savior then what do these verses mean then?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Why would they be included?

Why assume the verses are in conflict?

I used to have 3-page-long dissertations to explain all this, and I’m really just tired of repeating the same stuff. It’s to the point I could just write all this down in a text editor and copy-paste it.

Instead, consider this: No two things in conflict with each other can be simultaneously true in the same sense, right? That would be a contradiction. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself. For those passages to be simultaneously true, they must be understood in the sense they were intended. Technically, faith doesn’t save you, btw. It’s God’s grace that you receive THROUGH faith that saves. So if faith without works is dead AND one is saved by grace through faith, how would you go about explaining how both are true? I strongly disagree with the Catholic position on this one.

---

HA HA Ha... Yet it's Not A Total 'CRocK'...

'The Trademark Bible' is Poetry/

Prose; Again, Biblical Science

At Divinity School Level Shows

Through Centuries And Thousands

Of Years; IT iS Scripts of Free Verse Poetry/Prose

Copied And Pasted Together Without Any Computers;

Loosely Copied By 'Pen'; By The Relative Few Scribes Literate in

All Those Days, Making Copy Mistakes And Intentional Changes Along the Way;

Where Ghost Authors, Innumerable, Were Assigned Famous Pen Names Like Mark,
Luke, Matthew, And John; Where Each Pen Name Has Indeterminable Numbers of Ghost Authors,

Who Originally Selected Ideas From Many Oral Tradition Sects of Christianity (And Their Own Ideas)

At Least 4 Decades And More After the Little Brown Man Yeshua Was Likely Crucified And Actually

Lived as an Illiterate Aramaic Dude, Same As His Commoner Aramaic Associates; So What We

Have Left Is A Big Mixed Bag of Poetry/Prose All Copied And Pasted Together

In A Way to Try to Convince Folks One Part Proves Another, Which of

Course Means, iF iT doesn't Do it Well Enough, Editing Changes

And Revisions Come Then too; And IF You've Spent

9.3 MiLLioN Words of Free Verse Poetry in Response

to People Writing Poetry/Prose All Around The World

in 93 Months, Among More People Than Likely Ever Wrote the

Original Copied And Pasted Poetic Scripts of the Little Minuscule Effort

(And To Be Clear, For Every Poem ~{Metaphor}~ THere is ANoTHeR Set of 'God EYes' for Interpretation;

For Every God; For Every Devil; For Every Angel And Demon; For Every Trump And Jesus too)

oF An 800,000 Or So Word 'Mutt Mix' Collection of Writings Across the Centuries

That Are Basically A MisMatch oF A Round Table Discussion Where God Is All Loving

All Forgiving, Kills Himself on A Cross, Resurrects And Turns Non-Loyal Sheep Into Goats

And Burns them Forever After Suggesting Turn the Other Cheek, The Last Are the First in the

Kingdom of Heaven; NOW, YES NOW Within No WhERE ELSE, NOW, PER LUKE 17:21 And Love Your Enemy

Same As God All There IS AS LoVE NoW; YET AGAIN REMEMBER THIS PSYCHOPATHIC GOD HAS ANOTHER SIDE

Love Ya Forever;

Torture Ya Forever;

You Are Only A Mouse

God Toys With If He Likes

You And You Worship God Enough

Like Trump in the Bad Cop Psychopathic God Version...

Is the Book True; Does it Reflect Human Nature Still Today;

Indeed, Trump Plays the Mythical Role of the Bad Cop Version of God

In Human Form Well; And Likely Somewhere Else in the World Someone

In Human Form is Playing the Role of the Good Cop God too As Myths/Stories/Fiction Come REAL

to Life; And To Be Clear; There Are Many Trump And Jesus Folk As Well And The Spectrum

ALL Around; Yes Myths

That Still Come

True in Stories

Poetically That

Reflect the Most Unexplored

Territory of the UniVerse; What

Can't Be Measured Sufficiently by the

Scientific Method and Only Truly Will Be

Even Approximated in Description Through Arts;

Haha, It's True, Poetry is what it is; the Human Condition

And The Bible Does Portray The Human Condition From Dark to Light Well;

Anything Less

Would

Be
A Lie...

Just Like my Bible Poem 'Just For Fun';

It's Not All Honey And Butterflies either...

We All Write A New Testament With Every Breath We Take And Create DarK Thru

LiGHT; And As Far As Personal Responsibility Goes; Our Conscious Thought Comprises

About 5 Percent of Our Total Mind, What Is Largely Unexplored; At Most We Have Relative Free Will;

At Best We Regulate

Our Emotions

And Integrate

Our Senses And

Become A Feather in the Wind

Still Friends With Gravity, Meditating in Flow; Truly Meeting

Our Human Potentials, Greater Each Day In Effortless Ease of Laser

Focus in Greater Complexities; Remaining in Balance Tween Apathy And

Anxiety; Sweet Spot, Kingdom of Heaven Within; Asian Folks In Eastern

Philosophies/Religions/Politics of Living Together Do God Wind (Spirit) Greater

In Peace And Harmony; 'The Trademark Bought And Sold Bible' is Basically A Big Tribal

War Still Ongoing Where

Angels

And

Devils

Rule With Hope and

Love; And Fear and Hate;

Where Love is All Forgiving

Thanks Giving For Giving With

No Fear; All Sharing Caring For All

With Least Harm; And the Other Side that

Changes Sheep Who Don't Worship Properly

And Make Mistakes into Goats And Fires them Forever

Yes Trump

God is Still

Alive And Kicking
And Yes There is

Definitely Still Jesus Just Loving it All DarK Thru

LiGHT; i Only Speak for Myself and Have Met A Few

Others on 'The Road to Damascus' too

Far And Few Between

Yet They

Still
Breathe too....

And Still Fall Down And Rise....

Where Paul the Saul Said Gentile

Jew, Servant or Free, Woman or Man No More Unless

It is the Adulterer At Church You Aren't Supposed

to Sit Next to; Unlike the Thief That Jesus Forgave Hanging

Next to Him on a Cross; True, Bad Cop God; Good Cop God, And All the 'Tween

Welcome to

The Circus;

The Human

Condition Beyond

Alpha And Omega

Of Systemizing Science Still

And This, Just An Introduction For
Any Horatio or Believe It or Not Ripley;

There Are Experiences of DOING God NOW That Won't

Come Closes to Fitting into Words; Not even 9.3 MiLLioN

Words; i'm Not Impressed With 'the Old Bible' For i've Done More;

However, i Understand Why other Folks Are; They Just Don't See What i See

Or Even 'Who' 'i am'...

A

Feather

in The Breeze

True 'Forrest Gump'

Is About as Close to

A Fictional Modern Jesus

Who Has Ever Been Reproduced to Date...

The Meek Will Inherit the Earth; Read that

Until 'You' Understand And 'Just Do It' With All Forgiving Love...

And Yeah, 'Forrest Gump' Had A Couple of Money Table Turning Over

Events in

Life too...

i Highly

Recommend

'A Real Forrest Gump Bible'...

For You To Do For Real; Whoever You Are Now...

"Have you found Jesus yet, Gump?" – Lieutenant Daniel Taylor

"I didn’t know I was supposed to be looking for him, sir." – Forrest

"Is This Personal Responsibility too Hard to Do?" "Honestly, Love Is The Self Serving Reward For (God) All." -me

---

I don’t know about all that. The assertion that the Bible was altered is something that requires proof. There are a tiny number of places where there are legitimate conflicts, so to a degree that can be proven. The question, though, is what kinds of things have been altered and why? MT sources appear to have copied margin notes from earlier scrolls, and other copying errors are the equivalent of moving a comma or decimal in a number. And I think there’s a mixup over when a king reigned between Kings and Chronicles.

What’s important is
1. It’s incredibly rare considering how old the Bible is and how big it is
2. The errors are easy to spot, and there’s no secret about them.
3. The errors are insignificant and have no bearing on the meaning of the text as a whole.

If you are the kind of person who thinks the whole thing is wrong just because of punctuation, minor accounting discrepancies and tiny mistakes in palace records, you probably not inclined to believe any of it, anyway.

The assertion has been made, of course, that the Bible is “full of errors.” So when I can count on one hand how many margin notes, misplaced decimals, and disagreements on who reigned when, none of which affect theology in the least, I’m gonna want some strong evidence that can conclusively, incontrovertibly, slam-dunk-case-closed PROVE the whole thing is a lie.

Cube correctly quoted me on the problems inherent to the relationship between faith and evidence. I normally use that to describe the attitude of anti-theists who are committed to a worldview that necessarily excludes God. But if I’m being honest it cuts both ways. If you are committed to the opposite view, if you actually do have a relationship with God, at which point is there evidence that could change your mind? You can’t reasonably expect someone to deny the undeniable. It’s more interesting IMO to ask why one chooses to believe as he does. It’s never rational. Christianity is as close to anything rational as you can get. Objectively, Christianity values freedom, the sanctity of life, and answers the question of life after death within the scope of rational self-interest. I personally find it difficult to understand why anyone would come to any other conclusion, but the Bible does explain that sin corrupts the mind. Even if I were willing to make an evidentiary case for God, or if I offered classic logical proofs of God, or if I were to make any kind of case in defense of Christ and answered every kind of question unbelievers could possibly pose, I know it would never be enough. The mind under the influence of sin nature is unwilling to accept any of it. So I find it a better use of my time to cut the crap and move past the part where we all demand evidence. I will still ask for evidence if assertions call for evidence or proof even though I already know the answer. The point is not to “win” an argument or waste someone else’s time/energy, but rather get them to do something they aren’t used to doing: Honestly, actually THINK about the error in their own reasoning and contemplate the possibility that there MIGHT be more than what they’ve been willing to accept. I’m more interested in minds who choose to believe in the supernatural and are willing to seriously consider Christ. I don’t know that I’ll succeed, but maybe it’s enough that I at least discuss it openly.