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hyperlexian
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14 Apr 2012, 1:40 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
that's a reaction to the aesthetics, which is what i took issue with. anyone that cared about the aesthetics was not someone who i would have sex with, because the aesthetics involve unequal expectations between the genders and it is an unnatural process. if someone didn't find my natural state attractive (i.e. hairy) it would make no sense to be intimate with them.


Do you feel the same way about moderating behavior?

what are you talking about?


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TM
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14 Apr 2012, 1:44 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
that's a reaction to the aesthetics, which is what i took issue with. anyone that cared about the aesthetics was not someone who i would have sex with, because the aesthetics involve unequal expectations between the genders and it is an unnatural process. if someone didn't find my natural state attractive (i.e. hairy) it would make no sense to be intimate with them.


Do you feel the same way about moderating behavior?

what are you talking about?


Well, this entire talk about shaving came about as a discussion about unequal demands placed on genders based on the aesthetic preferences of the other gender and you made it very clear that you are against this. So I was curious whether you feel this way about behavior as well, IE that members of a gender should not have to moderate their behavior based on the preferences of the other gender. IE there is no reason other than preference to justify the behavioral moderation.



androbot2084
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14 Apr 2012, 1:53 pm

Well I will explain it to you this way. In high school I knew this feminist girl who refused to shave her arm pits. As soon as she noticed that I was turned off she made it her vendetta to never date these creeps who could not accept her just the way she is. But really she was very attractive when wearing more modest clothes.



14 Apr 2012, 2:04 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
That's correct. I don't care if the real world isn't a courtroom. You want more than just equal rights for men and women, you want them to be socially and even visually indistinguishable. Most of us, regardless of gender, really don't want this at all.

I just don't restrict the notion of "rights" to legal codification of rights.
I "want" individuals to have the right to be individuals, without sex-based expectations or rules forced on them by the larger culture,
nothing more or less.

You're right, though, that it's hard for me to fathom a worldview that involves treating a man or woman as anything other than a person, "socially", or otherwise,
or involves them being required to adopt special dress to identify their sex.

I think it interesting you presume to speak for the majority of humanity, Argumentum ad Populum aside.



It's just really not realistic to expect society to treat men and women exactly the same way and sex-based social norms to be nonexistent. It's up to individuals to decide for themselves what to do or not to with their bodies and live with the consequences. What I see is a lot of manipulation tactics from people wishing to change the social norms by telling those who go along with them under no legal duress that they've been brainwashed.



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14 Apr 2012, 2:10 pm

myth wrote:
I personally dislike body hair, period. Regarless of gender. I'm sure this is culturally influenced.

Re: Offbalance in heels. My husband finds pictures of models in awkward poses to be attractive for that reason, too. He has explained to me that her posture is compromising and she looks like she may fall and that is attractive. Seems to fit with what Ragtime said.


Male sexuality disturbs me at times.

No, I don't hate men for it. It's just that as someone who likes women, them looking more fragile and vulnerable is really not a turn-on for me (quite the opposite). But then I'm not 'evolved' to be a 'protector', or whatever.


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TM
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14 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
myth wrote:
I personally dislike body hair, period. Regarless of gender. I'm sure this is culturally influenced.

Re: Offbalance in heels. My husband finds pictures of models in awkward poses to be attractive for that reason, too. He has explained to me that her posture is compromising and she looks like she may fall and that is attractive. Seems to fit with what Ragtime said.


Male sexuality disturbs me at times.

No, I don't hate men for it. It's just that as someone who likes women, them looking more fragile and vulnerable is really not a turn-on for me (quite the opposite). But then I'm not 'evolved' to be a 'protector', or whatever.


Is it so different than some women being attracted to "broken" men because they think said men can be "fixed".



puddingmouse
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14 Apr 2012, 2:19 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
If you have the money, you might want to consider electrolysis to get the hair removed permanently so you won't have to bother. Of course, it's up to you.


I would end up having my whole body lasered. I think getting my eyes lasered is more of a priority. I have so much wrong with my body, that all the corrective measures would cost a fortune. Teeth whitening, scar removal, I've even thought about cosmetic surgery (though I decided against it). I wouldn't know where to start. The eyesight thing would pay for itself in the long run, plus I'd be correcting something that is objectively a fault. I like being able to grow body hair, even though I grow too much of it.


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14 Apr 2012, 2:21 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
If you have the money, you might want to consider electrolysis to get the hair removed permanently so you won't have to bother. Of course, it's up to you.


I would end up having my whole body lasered. I think getting my eyes lasered is more of a priority. I have so much wrong with my body, that all the corrective measures would cost a fortune. Teeth whitening, scar removal, I've even thought about cosmetic surgery (though I decided against it). I wouldn't know where to start. The eyesight thing would pay for itself in the long run, plus I'd be correcting something that is objectively a fault. I like being able to grow body hair, even though I grow too much of it.


I wonder if most of us are nearsighted?



puddingmouse
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14 Apr 2012, 2:24 pm

TM wrote:

Is it so different than some women being attracted to "broken" men because they think said men can be "fixed".


I've usually seen that the other way around; I think men are much more commonly into vulnerability.

The fact is, now that we no longer live in a hunter-gatherer society, women are not more vulnerable because physical strength is no longer needed for survival. So they create artificial female vulnerability, through all sorts of cultural artefacts. The artificialness is a turn-off for me, as well.


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TM
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14 Apr 2012, 2:28 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
TM wrote:

Is it so different than some women being attracted to "broken" men because they think said men can be "fixed".


I've usually seen that the other way around; I think men are much more commonly into vulnerability.

The fact is, now that we no longer live in a hunter-gatherer society, women are not more vulnerable because physical strength is no longer needed for survival. So they create artificial female vulnerability, through all sorts of cultural artefacts. The artificialness is a turn-off for me, as well.


To be honest, women are just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable now, hence why women I meet when I'm out during an evening walk tend to cross the road or pull out their cellphones when they see me coming towards them.



14 Apr 2012, 2:35 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
If you have the money, you might want to consider electrolysis to get the hair removed permanently so you won't have to bother. Of course, it's up to you.


I would end up having my whole body lasered. I think getting my eyes lasered is more of a priority. I have so much wrong with my body, that all the corrective measures would cost a fortune. Teeth whitening, scar removal, I've even thought about cosmetic surgery (though I decided against it). I wouldn't know where to start. The eyesight thing would pay for itself in the long run, plus I'd be correcting something that is objectively a fault. I like being able to grow body hair, even though I grow too much of it.



What I've read BTW is that electrolysis is a far more effective(and cheaper) way of permanently removing body hair as opposed to laser hair removal which is only semi-permanent and has more potential for side effects.



Joker
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14 Apr 2012, 2:39 pm

TM wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
TM wrote:

Is it so different than some women being attracted to "broken" men because they think said men can be "fixed".


I've usually seen that the other way around; I think men are much more commonly into vulnerability.

The fact is, now that we no longer live in a hunter-gatherer society, women are not more vulnerable because physical strength is no longer needed for survival. So they create artificial female vulnerability, through all sorts of cultural artefacts. The artificialness is a turn-off for me, as well.


To be honest, women are just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable now, hence why women I meet when I'm out during an evening walk tend to cross the road or pull out their cellphones when they see me coming towards them.


Those are the women you meet this how ever isn't true for all women.



puddingmouse
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14 Apr 2012, 2:41 pm

TM wrote:

To be honest, women are just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable now, hence why women I meet when I'm out during an evening walk tend to cross the road or pull out their cellphones when they see me coming towards them.


That's called being streetwise. Men are much more often the victims of street crime (muggings, etc) than women are, anyway. Are men more vulnerable?


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puddingmouse
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14 Apr 2012, 2:47 pm

AspieRogue wrote:

What I've read BTW is that electrolysis is a far more effective(and cheaper) way of permanently removing body hair as opposed to laser hair removal which is only semi-permanent and has more potential for side effects.


It is fairly inexpensive, having just looked it up. However, I like being able to grow hair. I only remove it because of social expectations.


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14 Apr 2012, 2:53 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Yes but if women refuse to shave why do they insist on wearing tank tops ?


"Refuse" and "insist"? You are talking like you believe women were created, and have an obligation, to fulfill some need of yours to see only female humans who artificially remove body hair.



TM
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14 Apr 2012, 2:55 pm

Joker wrote:

Those are the women you meet this how ever isn't true for all women.


Nothing is true for "all women" or "all men" or "all bigenders" but as long as men are physically stronger than women the genders can never be equal its that simple. Either men dominate women through brute strength or women dominate men because the men accept the premise "even if she performs a violent act against me, I will not retaliate". It's one of the funny things, because the Murray Straus paper showed a high acceptance among females for violence against men, Straus also put in said paper that in 24% of domestic violence cases reported, the woman struck the first blow. In this case, its socially unacceptable for the man to strike back and the reason for that is?

On a pure anecdotal level, I've had women say to me and observe women say to other men, things that if a man had said that to another man that man would be in the hospital. If another man laid hands on me, I'd do the same or more likely worse to him. This is not all women, (I shouldn't have to qualify that statement) but some women are perfectly aware that its socially unacceptable for a man to react in certain ways when a woman "makes a scene" and use that to the furthest extent possible.

Regardless of how you answer this post, you are unable to do so without conceding that men and women are in fact different and thus can never be equal.