Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

Post Reply New Topic

What about the survivors of the Battle of Chosin Reservoir? What would they say about personal responsibility? Or if those who died at the Alamo could speak, what would they have to say about personal responsibility? When people are willing to fight impossible battles all the way to the end, it speaks volumes of their values and principles. At Chosin, despite it being a lost cause, the RETREAT ended up crippling the Chinese army. Santa Ana’s cruelty at the Alamo sealed his fate at San Jacinto when he unknowingly galvanized revolutionary forces. And despite the CSA being an institutionally racist, collectivist state on the wrong side of history, what about all those men fighting to protect their wives, their children, and the sacred honor of their homeland? What would they say about personal responsibility? And speaking of the wrong side of history, what about Stalingrad in World War II? I wonder where those people stood on personal responsibility...

It’s almost unreal the stories you get when people face impossible odds at gunpoint under the worst possible conditions. Most people just give up and surrender, and there is value to surviving to fight another day. But they’re events like these that are absolutely breathtaking when considering just how far people are willing to go to pay the ultimate price for ideas and people they love. You won’t find a more impressive demonstration of personal responsibility than those. I could name more. Thermopylae. Masada. What would those guys have said about personal responsibility?

Last edited by AngelRho on 08 Jun 2021, 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the horatio alger types will never grok those who aren't just like them. simple as that. it is about walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. there was an old preacher whose name escapes me now, who said words to the effect, "there are none so tender as those who themselves have been skinned."

Waking a mile in another’s shows cuts both ways. Would the disadvantaged ever consider walking a mile in an achiever’s shoes?

i will say first of all i was not criticizing you in particular, only commenting on the limitations of the philosophy. when a person is down far enough, they literally cannot see up. that is why it's so easy to sink to homelessness and so infernally hard to escape it. one sinks into a type of abyss of the psyche, that only an overwhelming external force can change. that was my own experience. i fear for this country as well, as it appears on the whole that it is sinking fast into an abyss of the psyche, and history says that once that happens, only an external force will change things.

Speaking of walking a few miles in disadvantaged shoes...ever heard of Mike Sherman? Couldn’t afford housing, so he slept on a cot in Pitt Stadium. Went on to lead the Packers in 5 consecutive winning seasons. He might be able to tell you a thing or two about personal responsibility.

AngelRho, did the majority who were poor or disabled pull themselves by their own bootstraps? You're giving me small sample spaces without proving the whole.

Again, I can claim that I found 10 white swans and then claim that all or most swans are white. Does that mean it is really so?

If the majority could beat the odds then they would no longer be the odds.

You can name a 100 names. It proves nothing unless you prove the whole or the majority of the sample space through a valid statistical analysis.

The fact of the matter is there are more people who are disabled not in the labor force then who are employed. And, this occurs for all age brackets.

This is one of the issues with the whole horatio alger based thinking and the whole concept of personal responsibility. The fallacy they use is a few people did it so the majority or others can do it as well. The bureau of labor statistics disproves this very notion for those who are disabled.

AngelRho, you are guilty of commiting the fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... ralization

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 09 Jun 2021, 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

I don’t get the impression that Pilat needs to ask anyone permission to do what she does.

https://www.pilatart.com/about

#personalresponsibility

Are you even reading what I am saying?

Again, you're making a hasty generalization.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... ralization

#hastygeneralization

How about Christina Sandefur? Lawyer. Fought for terminally ill patients’ rights by helping write Right To Try. Also fights for private property rights in Arizona. Basically, she’s a TRUE Robin Hood: Not one who steals from the rich and gives to the needy, but rather recovers what the government steals and returns it to the citizens. I wonder if she needs to ask permission before doing the right thing? #personalresponsibility

#hastygeneralization

What you are saying is irrelevant. You don’t seem to know what a hasty generalization is, or you wouldn’t accuse me of it. I’m not attempting to make a point based on ANY sample size, large or small. If it’s about sample size, then go ahead and add the CSA, the Alamo, Masada, Chosin, Leningrad, Thermopylae, and countless more. I’m sure we could get these numbers up into the millions. How about Passchendaele? The lowball estimate on both sides comes out close to half a million. There are many...Task Force Taffy 3 resulted in 2496 casualties and was considered one of the proudest moments in US naval history. They didn’t think it was a crock. #personalresponsibility

If you actually knew what a hasty generalization is, you’d know I’m not making one.

The problem for you is every example challenges your narrative. I can keep going. You cannot rationally defend your point.

Helen Fisher—anthropologist researching love and sexuality. Showed how brain scans demonstrate differences between male and female attraction. Men are more visual, perhaps evolved from a need to assess the reproductive suitability of a mate. Women showed more activity in the memory centers of the brain. Since women aren’t going on looks, they are sizing men up based on past behaviors to determine whether they will be effective husbands and fathers.

I wonder if she had to ask her husband’s permission to do these studies... #personalresponsibility

And, guess what the Bureau of Labor Statistics challenges your points. And, yes I know exactly what a hasty generalization is.

Find me stats in which the vast majority of people were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps.

Find me stats in which the vast majority of people with disabilities were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps.

All you're giving me is testimonials and selected samples. You can name 5000 people who were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps. If you have 100,000 who could not then that would be a drop in the bucket.

Same thing with disabilities. For every Temple Grandin who succeeded how many autistics ended up claiming SSDI, live with their parents, end up in group homes or commit suicide.

You're giving examples of those who did succeed but that's meaningless without comparing it against those who sunk and could not succeed.

You believe I don't know the meaning of what a hasty generalization is. Okay, then define it then. You say I'm using it wrong. How? How am I using it wrong? What is the right way that it is supposed to be used and why is that the right way and why are other ways wrong? That's the thing! All you've have said in the pages of conversations is that I'm wrong and this is what is. No explanation. No explaining on how you even get there. Whether it is with God, personal responsibility or anything we've discussed or disputed.

You're drawing your conclusions based upon small and incomplete sample sizes. That's a hasty generalization.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... ralization

And, if you're kicking my ass at this. If you are so sure you're right on this. Why continue? Why continue to have any conversation with me? What exactly is your stake in this exactly? Why do you care what I say on here. You could easily drop out of the conversation which you said you would do many times? My friend, you're not beating me at anything. All you're doing is the erosion effect with the I'm right and you're wrong.

You've proven nothing good sir. All you've done is said a lot of sophisticated verbiage for the entire 37 or so pages of this entire conversation but it has little to no substance to it.

I ask how water is wet and how it gets to be wet. How does it get to be that way? You would say that water simply has that nature. It simply is wet.

Or, how do plants grow? Brawndo has electrolytes that makes plants grow? But, how does Brawndo make plants grow? Well, plants have electrolytes? But what are electrolytes?

This is you AngelRho even though your words are more sophisticated.

AngelRho, you refuse to see that your points, arguments and belief system could possibly have holes and flaws to them just like other personal responsibility advocates I've dealt with. You are completely and utterly locked into this whole American mythos that anyone can do anything and anyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps which is not true. Yes, you have people who do but how many do not and cannot?

The bureau of labor statistics I posted twice is staring at you in the face. Get your head out of your ass!

What makes you think that the vast majority of poor people are able to pull themselves by their boot straps? Same question with disabled people?

Are you this obtuse?

I'm just an observer. I'd hate to tell the young child Santa Claus isn't real and burst his bubble. Especially if said bubble is all that keeps him afloat. I roll my eyes and smile.

But cubedemon6073 is entirely correct.

Facts!