What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

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skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 1:24 pm

Sand wrote:

That seems to be a pandemic with police everywhere.

Which is why I think policia should have expiration dates on them or have to serve in tours/terms of duty rather than constantly being within the same role that inevitably leads to either corruption or such a pessimistic view of the lower/impoverished class in general that, in most areas, racism inevitably ensues which leads to horrific action or sometimes inaction.

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Vana
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22 Sep 2009, 1:30 pm

Henriksson wrote:

Vana wrote:

Sand wrote:

The whole world had its opportunity to turn Nazi and it didn't seem to work out too well.

So in your view, the USSA, Oz, etc is not the largest and most sophisticated police state the World has ever known?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 660529314#

Is it either Hitler or Total Anarchy in your view? I can agree that America does do a lot of bad and irresponsible stuff...

Have you ever been outside?

"Swedish Troops Head for Afghanistan
Sweden is sending some 400 troops to Afghanistan..."
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... hp?t=73124

Yes, anarchy is the way out of the box, (a bit dated, but the dialectic is mostly good),

http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussi ... m-t441.htm

skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 1:45 pm

Vana wrote:

Yes, anarchy is the way out of the box

No it isn't. It's a way into tribalistic communes and mob rule and worse oppression than now for all of the first world countries that you're naming off.

Again: it's in the psychology. "Anarchy" is just a cute little dream that people wish could happen but won't. Kinda like Jesus' second coming.

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22 Sep 2009, 2:18 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Vana wrote:

Yes, anarchy is the way out of the box

Wow! Super! I love how you won't think anything at all different from the main-stream. Super cool that you just repeat the same prejudice as everyone else! Excellent. I know you read carefully Tolstoy, Thoreau, Fromm, Camus, and Stirner before you came to 'your' conclusion.

"You may say that I'm a dreamer..."
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PS, I am Jesus -- Mary, and the Father.

Last edited by Vana on 22 Sep 2009, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 2:20 pm

Vana wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Vana wrote:

Yes, anarchy is the way out of the box

Nothing mainstream about it. It's based on factual information.

All anarchy falls into mob mentality with communal overtones. Or are you talking about living as an isolationist a la Walden?

Btw: how very anarchist of you to be providing support for one of the largest means of control by your frequenting of computers and the internet service.

Vana
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22 Sep 2009, 2:23 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Nothing mainstream about it. It's based on factual information.

All anarchy falls into mob mentality with communal overtones. Or are you talking about living as an isolationist a la Walden?

Amazing! Great and careful reading of history! Isn't that just how it happened in Ukraine, Spain, and Central America?

skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 2:32 pm

Vana wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Nothing mainstream about it. It's based on factual information.

All anarchy falls into mob mentality with communal overtones. Or are you talking about living as an isolationist a la Walden?

Amazing! Great and careful reading of history! Isn't that just how it happened in Ukraine, Spain, and Central America?

Vague allusions only will get you so far. Start coming up with some specifics. I grew out of my anarchist/punk rawker phase when I started reading actual literature rather than simply putting faith into a vague ideology that doesn't even stand up to the most basic of analysis.

Still fairly anti-mainstream media...but you seem to be like a 15 year old who just discovered Leftover Crack and is taking everything they say at a very base level. (Leftover Crack = awesome band, by the way)

Awesomelyglorious
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22 Sep 2009, 4:05 pm

Sand wrote:

No. You have lost. The child has won. You can lose to make someone else win but losing is still losing. Sanity is a legal term, not a medical one.

Umm.... that only works if you presuppose that the objective MUST BE to live the longest life possible. The issue is that most people seem to reject it.

Ok, but legal terms are even less objective than medical terms, as a legal term is without question based upon social preferences.

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22 Sep 2009, 4:10 pm

Vana wrote:

Stirner? I thought I might have detected something like that in your writing.

Awesomelyglorious
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22 Sep 2009, 4:30 pm

skafather84 wrote:

No it isn't. It's a way into tribalistic communes and mob rule and worse oppression than now for all of the first world countries that you're naming off.

All anarchy falls into mob mentality with communal overtones. Or are you talking about living as an isolationist a la Walden?

What kind of anarchism are you talking about. I think you are probably talking about social anarchism. I would guess Vana is talking about individualist anarchism. The ideas are somewhat different and have different heroes, and also, there is a question of who exactly falls into individualist anarchism. I mean, uber-laissez-faire libertarians sometimes call themselves anarcho-capitalists. Are they legitimate, or not really anarchists? They certainly don't seem tribal though.

skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 4:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

So then, tell me how individualist anarchism would work without it falling into the commune/tribal model that I said it would. I'm fairly libertarian on the individual rights but individual anarchism seems like it would never happen if only by the will of mob rule and the general will of the people. It's impossible to get basic legislation out of any law book rather less maintain a society on that level of freedom. I'd rather work toward getting the important matters addressed and the negative liberty that needs to be opened up freed already without some utopian garbage polluting the entire political discourse.

Anarcho-capitalists have their tribes: Disney/ABC/Go, Bain & Company "management consultants", Newscorp. The corporation replaces the tribe and eventually the nation/government. Not especially something I'd aspire toward.

claire-333
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22 Sep 2009, 6:52 pm

Sand wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Not only that, but to say that "death is total defeat" presupposes that a person does not have values above their own life, and that their identity is fully tied to their physical existence. If my identity is instead tied to a child(could be parental, brotherly, etc), and if by my death, I save that child, then I have won, there is no question about that. The goal only includes living if you want it to include living, but there is no objective goal.

No. You have lost. The child has won. You can lose to make someone else win but losing is still losing.

This is the most confusing thing I have read here in some time. I imagine body snatchers have taken posession of both of you.

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22 Sep 2009, 7:35 pm

ruveyn wrote:

140 on the Wechsler test. Several times, too.

ruveyn

What Wechsler test is that? And on what scale are you basing your percentiles? On the current WAIS-IV, there is a 15-point standard deviation, putting 130 at the 98th percentile. For someone so bright to mix up the conversion from IQ score to percentile ranking seems unlikely.

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Awesomelyglorious
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22 Sep 2009, 8:34 pm

claire333 wrote:

This is the most confusing thing I have read here in some time. I imagine body snatchers have taken posession of both of you.

Probably. Does that mean I've lost???

Awesomelyglorious
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22 Sep 2009, 8:40 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Well, individualist anarchism is more market-oriented than social anarchism, which is the only real statement I will make.

Anarcho-capitalists don't have those tribes, they have the Friedmanites and the Rothbardians, and probably some other things, but not what you are talking about. I know, you are trying to say what they will have, but isn't that also a speculative doctrine? After all, to say what will happen if society radically changes, requires a lot of certitude about a lot of different issues. I suppose you can say that it is likely to devolve into tribalism, the issue is why anarcho-capitalism would become tribal in a manner worse than current society.

skafather84
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22 Sep 2009, 8:59 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

It's speculation but all I have to go on is what we've already seen develop with what deregulation of industry there has been. It's been (very) basically a large, macro-sized version of Darwinism where the big fish eats the smaller fish with regards to businesses themselves and is like tribalism as far as how many of the businesses interact and offer deals to each other. I had many, many nice deals available when I was with Disney that went well beyond Disney's entertainment empire and into hardware and many, many other goods and services.

You can only be lead to assume the current trend would continue more so at a more voracious pace as anarcho-capitalism was implemented. All that could happen with more deregulation would be just more and more of a move toward corporatism/fascism.

Speculative, yes...but also the most logical guess given the information presented so far from society/the corporate world.

As it is, we're already moving that way anyways with the recognition of the corporate entity as an individual and the donation of money as a form of speech protected under the first amendment.

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