Sum up the meaning of life in one sentence.

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MrLoony
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25 Dec 2009, 5:10 pm

Philotix wrote:
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just that it seems a little strange for us to declare that we fully know our reality right now - either in life or outside of it.


I fully agree with this statement... which is why I'm an agnostic and can't stand the people that say "There IS a God!" OR "There ISN'T a God!" and "know" it for CERTAIN!

That just seems absurd to me.


THANK you. I am very religious, but I never claim that my beliefs are absolutely certainly correct. I noticed that this attitude has actually allowed me to remember things as they actually are more and look at my life through the eyes of an outside observer easier.

Now, as far as the atheists who think that science is on their side:

How is it that you think you know more about how the universe works than Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and Hawking combined? Hawking's main argument for the existance of a god is science! The probability of the universe beginning in such a way as to sustain physical life is about 1/infinity. I'm not kidding about that, look up the anthropic principle. I'm not saying that your beliefs are necessarily wrong, but could you please stop being so arrogant about them? Kthx.

Edit: Really, it's not that small, but it's darn close.


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25 Dec 2009, 6:41 pm

ascan wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
....strong atheists are right - period. You may not understand that one, I can't fully grasp it myself...

I can't grasp how anyone who's ever spent any time thinking about it can believe in a god. It's never made sense to me. I can see how the idea is appealing, and how it provides support to some people, but I can't believe in something for which there's no evidence and which when examined closely appears completely absurd. Having said that, I'm not as quick to ridicule it as Sand. If people want to believe then that's their business; but I do draw the line at that creationist nonsense when it's used to indoctrinate kids. That surely deserves all the ridicule and contempt that can be heaped upon it.


I thoroughly agree with this statement, ascan - and I'm thoroughly religious too! lol I would add that one needs to locate the logical reasons to substantiate their belief in order for it not to appear absurd.

Philotix - In my opinion Sand is one of the least bitter people I've come across. His compassionate concern for living beings could never be described as bitter. And I have no qualms with anyone wishing to find reason in everything. (And I think you're the same as me in that respect!) The Buddha himself said not to believe in anything just because he said it. Without ascertaining the definitive meaning for ourself, following anything is rather fake.

techstepgenr8tion - I totally love your phrase 'the strange urges that we naturally have as people to spiral upward in humanity and intelligence'. This really should have been typed in bold because I think this is the crux of the issue here.


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25 Dec 2009, 6:53 pm

richardbenson wrote:
moderation, what is that lao zao saying? eveything is permissible in moderation? if you know that, that is the trick


This is just a guess - but my very limited understanding of Taoist 'moderation' is a harmony between 'yin and yang' - the opposing forces of nature. Both deprivation and over-exertion can wreak havoc on one's lifeforce.

I would contrast this with the term 'middle way' in buddhism which is entirely a view that sits in the 'middle' of nihilism and eternalism.

By countering nihilistic views we become morally responsible for our actions because we accept that everything exists functionally in a cause-and-effect relationship.

By countering eternalistic views we free ourselves of the bindings of attachment and aversion as we realise nothing exists permanently. It frees us from the grasping at mere appearances.


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25 Dec 2009, 6:59 pm

Sand wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
moderation, what is that lao zao saying? eveything is permissible in moderation? if you know that, that is the trick


No, that's not what it's saying at all (although living a balanced life is an important concept in Taoism). Again, the Tao is not the Way, the Path, or any other thing like that. I could call it Babbakanush, and it would do the same thing as calling it Tao. Tao is the name, used for convenience, to draw the mind in the direction of what the speaker or writer wishes to draw the mind to, and that is the Name that cannot be named, the Tao that cannot be called Tao. Calling it by name, describing it, using phrases to refer to it (as I just did) is a betrayal of its nature. It eludes description and words are inadequate for it. That quote is not a moral guide, but rather, as my mother referred to it, "religious mumbo-jumbo." Or something like that.

As I said, I was using that quote mostly to explain that the meaning of life cannot truly be summed up in words.


Since the meaning of life cannot be summed up in words and words are the only way this discussion progresses then this thread is totally useless.


lol! I agree that words are necessary - but for the purposes of guidance or instruction only. I would say there's a difference between understanding and realisation. Realisation can only be achieved through experience which goes beyond the words used to gain it.


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25 Dec 2009, 7:04 pm

Magnus wrote:
To be loved?

People do all sorts of things without realizing that they are driven by a desire to be loved. If we love ourselves unconditionally, we don't need outside validation.


Love for others validates one's existence. If we each only have love for ourselves then we become a waste of each others' space. Troubles in the world like war and poverty are brought about by people or nations merely serving their own purposes.

When we have love for others it no longer matters what they think of us. All that matters is whether or not they are happy.


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25 Dec 2009, 7:32 pm

I said love oneself unconditionally. I think to get that point requires various steps, the first being to always do right by one's own conscience. Next there is courage to follow through, and on and on...Very few people really love themselves. This is not about an ego trip. Before you really know how to love, you have to break your ego.


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25 Dec 2009, 8:23 pm

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
In the very long run, all is futile.

ruveyn


Is this a restatement of the second law?


It is only a philosophical extension. Thermodynamics talks about entropy, not futility.

ruveyn



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25 Dec 2009, 8:40 pm

The best laid plans of mice and men are often gone to waste.

-Robert Burns


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25 Dec 2009, 9:09 pm

Magnus wrote:
The best laid plans of mice and men are often gone to waste.

-Robert Burns


“Opera is where a guy gets stabbed in the back, and instead of dying, he sings.” -Robert Burns :lol:



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25 Dec 2009, 9:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:
In the very long run, all is futile.

ruveyn


"In the end, only kindness matters."

~Jewel


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25 Dec 2009, 9:13 pm

Philotix wrote:
Magnus wrote:
The best laid plans of mice and men are often gone to waste.

-Robert Burns


“Opera is where a guy gets stabbed in the back, and instead of dying, he sings.” -Robert Burns :lol:


LOL

Not that Robert burns, silly... :lol:


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25 Dec 2009, 9:15 pm

This song is for Sand and ruveyn.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkcFwRCnEzs[/youtube]

Quote:
You know when your sure - that no one gives a crap, - your on the right track - It's a fact - And when you believe, - things are good - it's guaranteed - you're up your ass - It's a fact - Morons through - the world, - and it's sh***y place - no one ever asked to be born - It's a fact - You know every time - you think you've got it right, - your totally wrong - It's a fact - And when you really try - the efforts misapplied - or there's a catch - It's a fact - So rest assured - in knowing that - what you do - don't matter - Someone can do it - better anyways - It's a fact - When you've got a sure thing, - your sure to f**k it up - It's one thing you can count on every time - It's a fact - What can you do? - Absolutely nothing - don't even try to amount to something - It will never work and Hitler is a jerk, - and soon we'll all be dead anyway - It's a fact - (you suck) - In five billion years - the sun will explode - It's in the bible - It's a fact - And no one will know - that we were ever here - It's a fact - It's a fact - So rest assured in knowing - that what you do don't matter - Some one can do it better anyway - It's a fact - It's a fact


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25 Dec 2009, 10:22 pm

Since it keeps coming up at this site it’s probably worthwhile to take a more analytical look at atheism, agnosticism and commitment to a religious belief. Although these three attitudes seem to be reasonable tightly defined, as it turns out in practice, they are not totally exclusive points of view but fall on a continuous spectrum.

Atheism is assumed to be a total denial of any supernatural intelligence acting on the way people behave and the way the universe performs. And atheists are really in a linguistic quandary when they hit their thumbs with a hammer. Invective is traditionally religious or deals with human waste products but there are no really powerful atheistic curses. It’s a problem.

Agnosticism is an admission that there may be no obvious acceptable evidence of a supernatural intellect but grants that such an intellect would have the capability to remain hidden and may be active in ways not discernible and therefore one must arrange one’s life on the possibility of the existence of such an entity.

Religious believers come in all flavors with a very entertaining circus of amusing, silly, threatening, frightful, kindly, intelligent, brutal, clumsy, etc. supernatural powers that have demands that range from restrictive sexual, ingestive, performance, etc rather rigid rules based on various ancient folklore texts of very dubious origins and validities. Aside from these texts which can have very doubtful historical roots there is little concrete evidence that the practices advised come from anything other than ancient ignorant tribal beliefs that may or may not be socially useful and the enforcement of these directives is totally through human actions which a neutral observer would be led to believe that the actual supernatural powers are either defunct or perhaps lost interest long ago considering the inferior material humankind has presented for their supervision.

One dividing point in these attitudes is the split between theory and action. There are doubtless atheists that deny gods but feel a bit insecure on Friday the 13 or avoid stepping on sidewalk cracks to preserve their mothers’ backs. Agnostics are a bit more solid here as they permit themselves flexibility in their precautions and can act as if they were atheists but preserve mental cautions about how a god might consider a bit of blasphemy now and then. And religious people of all sorts can live in eternal fear and trembling that a chance misbehavior might end them up in eternal torture or figure their god is a rather decent fellow and a fart or two in church or an elevator may evoke a momentary frown or two from a deity but no real damage is done. It seems that people continually involved in horrendous activity such as Mafia hit men and soldiers at war or financiers gouging helpless clients or heads of state sending off murderous militaries on missions that kill hundreds of thousands of totally innocent people can put their active practices out of mind when considering their religious standing.

Therefore these simpleminded classifications really have little relationship to the way people act and conduct their lives.



Philotix
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25 Dec 2009, 10:44 pm

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Agnosticism is an admission that there may be no obvious acceptable evidence of a supernatural intellect but grants that such an intellect would have the capability to remain hidden and may be active in ways not discernible and therefore one must arrange one’s life on the possibility of the existence of such an entity.


BZZZT! WRONG!

I'm an agnostic and I don't grant that any proposed intellect would "remain hidden" and I don't arrange my life based on the possibility of such an intellect.

Agnosticism is simply the belief that there's not enough credible data on EITHER side of the god/no god debate to make a final decision one way or the other.

I live based entirely on the "golden rule"... namely how I would want to be treated is the way that I treat others. God or no god, that's a pretty reasonable way to live if you ask me. But I certainly do NOT make decisions based on what would be the best thing to do "just in case" an intelligent god exists and is watching me.



Last edited by Philotix on 25 Dec 2009, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrLoony
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25 Dec 2009, 10:44 pm

Sand wrote:
Atheism is assumed to be a total denial of any supernatural intelligence acting on the way people behave and the way the universe performs. And atheists are really in a linguistic quandary when they hit their thumbs with a hammer. Invective is traditionally religious or deals with human waste products but there are no really powerful atheistic curses. It’s a problem.


There is a lot more to atheism than that, and it would do many atheists here good to read the writings of early atheists such as Hume and d'Holbach. Atheism is primarily a belief in proof, reason, and observation. Going against that is like someone saying that Jesus wasn't real and then claiming to be Christian.

Edit:

Sand wrote:
Religious believers come in all flavors with a very entertaining circus of amusing, silly, threatening, frightful, kindly, intelligent, brutal, clumsy, etc. supernatural powers that have demands that range from restrictive sexual, ingestive, performance, etc rather rigid rules based on various ancient folklore texts of very dubious origins and validities. Aside from these texts which can have very doubtful historical roots there is little concrete evidence that the practices advised come from anything other than ancient ignorant tribal beliefs that may or may not be socially useful and the enforcement of these directives is totally through human actions which a neutral observer would be led to believe that the actual supernatural powers are either defunct or perhaps lost interest long ago considering the inferior material humankind has presented for their supervision.


This really proves that you're rather ignorant in the area of religion. I love how you take the worst caricature of Catholicism there is and claim that it applies to all religions. None of this makes any sense in Theravada Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism. There's also plenty of other religious faiths that don't have that sort of thing. Some Gnostic views are so far from this it's absurd to think that you could possibly group them in.


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25 Dec 2009, 10:52 pm

Philotix wrote:
Quote:
Agnosticism is an admission that there may be no obvious acceptable evidence of a supernatural intellect but grants that such an intellect would have the capability to remain hidden and may be active in ways not discernible and therefore one must arrange one’s life on the possibility of the existence of such an entity.


BZZZT! WRONG!

I'm an agnostic and I don't grant that any proposed intellect would "remain hidden" and I don't arrange my life based on the possibility of such an intellect.

Agnosticism is simply the belief that there's not enough credible data on EITHER side of the god/no god debate to make a final decision one way or the other.

I live based entirely on the "golden rule"... namely how I would want to be treated is the way that I treat others. God or no god, that's a pretty reasonable way to live if you ask me. But I certainly do NOT make decisions based on what would be the best thing to do "just in case" an intelligent god exists and is watching me.


No, not wrong. As I indicated it is a spectrum with all sorts of varieties. You may claim agnosticism but your actions are as an atheist. If you make no concessions to a supernatural power in your actions you are an active atheist and a theoretical agnostic.