Abortion

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DentArthurDent
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02 Jan 2010, 1:47 am

Magnus wrote:

If humans have souls, so should all animals. Would it be wrong to take your cat in for an abortion simply because you couldn't afford to care for the kittens?

NO it would be wrong not to have the cat de-sexed before it got pregnant

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Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 2:05 am

Are you being funny?

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DentArthurDent
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02 Jan 2010, 2:51 am

No I am being quite serious. Pets, dogs and cats especially, should be de-sexed unless you intend to breed from them.

in direct response to your question should you have your cats litter aborted, possibly, or though I tend to think it would be better (safer) to go full term, have the kittens, adopt them out or have them euthanised, and then get your pet de-sexed.

If you are suggesting that, humans should not abort pregnancies because the unborn foetus has a soul, and this soul is sentient and fully cognitive of the abortive procedure, then yes this would change the abortion debate significantly. As far as science can tell us this is NOT the case.

Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 10:26 am

Sorry Dent :oops:

Yes, pets need to be spayed and neutered. I just think that is a little too much to expect at this point. I assumed that the abortion debate centered around the belief in a soul.

Spontaneous abortions happen all the time. Often times the woman is unaware of when this occurs because it happens in the first month. Is that upsetting? I guess so, but I doubt that God cares.

LKL
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02 Jan 2010, 3:49 pm

To continue the ananlogy, though, humans who don't want kids should also have themselves sterilized, or at least use birth control consistently.

DentArthurDent
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02 Jan 2010, 3:52 pm

Magnus wrote:

I assumed that the abortion debate centered around the belief in a soul.

Maybe it does, at least from religious anti-abortion side of things, I hadn't really considered that to be an important part of the argument, why would I, after all I do not believe in souls.

If then, people believe abortions to be abhorrent because the embryo or foetus has a soul, what is going on with miscarriages. As you correctly point out, first trimester miscarriage is incredibly common.

Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 4:10 pm

LKL wrote:

To continue the ananlogy, though, humans who don't want kids should also have themselves sterilized, or at least use birth control consistently.

or...

Don't have sex until you are ready to have a baby? I wasn't having sex when I got pregnant. Maybe I did once with my husband around the time, but that was about it. I was nursing a 6 month old at the time so I figured abstinence plus nursing would be enough birth control.

I know this is a lot of personal information, but this is a personal topic...or at least it should be. Unless you want to get involved in other people's lives, it's probably wise to assume you don't know what is best for everyone, including fetuses.

The Catholic Church states that birth control goes against the will of God. It's like playing God, to decide when you will have a baby. They only condone the rhythm method which is not completely effective.

Birth control methods are considered immoral by the Catholic church. This is logical and consistent with their teachings on abortion, but it's not logical and consistent with how myself and many others view the world. Nor is it very realistic to expect humans or any animals to abstain from sex. We are sexual beings, or at least many of us are. That is just a part of life. If people judge sex as immoral, then it is more telling about them than those of whom they judge.

LKL
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02 Jan 2010, 4:34 pm

How about, 'don't have sex if you're a Catholic,' then?

'Cause the Catholic church has absolutely no right to impose its social doctrine on the entire population.

Sand
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02 Jan 2010, 7:58 pm

LKL wrote:

How about, 'don't have sex if you're a Catholic,' then?

'Cause the Catholic church has absolutely no right to impose its social doctrine on the entire population.

How about facing reality?

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02 Jan 2010, 8:02 pm

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/q_facts.asp

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DentArthurDent
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02 Jan 2010, 9:13 pm

PunkyKat wrote:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/q_facts.asp

And this proves what exactly, other than some of the 'quick facts' are very disingenuous, for example, 20 weeks is given as the earliest a pre term can survive outside the womb, firstly the earliest surviving pre-term is recorded as being 21 weeks and 5 days, and secondly the baby generally needs a feeding tube, breathing apparatus, steroids, and a host of other medical interventions to survive.

The fact of the matter is, like it or not, women have been obtaining abortions for millennia, and will continue to do so until humanity becomes extinct. It is only in the last 150 years or so that abortion has become a illegal in many jurisdictions, some historians claim rivalries between female midwife's and the more influential male physicians are the catalyst for this. To make abortion illegal, will once again push women to seek out dangerous, unregulated back street abortions, with little or no medical after-care.

If you are against abortion on religious grounds do as some here have already suggested and get realistic about contraception and sexual education. As Magnus has said we are Sexual Animals. Trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies by telling people to abstain is simply an absurd approach to take, not only is it absurd, this approach will most likely push people to do the very thing you do not want, i.e. obtain an abortion.

anna-banana
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03 Jan 2010, 5:11 am

pro-death here.

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anna-banana
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03 Jan 2010, 5:15 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

PunkyKat wrote:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/q_facts.asp

'zactly, these are hardly facts as they don't even quote sources. "Pregnancy from rape is extremely rare." - that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, there are countries (and there were epochs) when rape was the main source of pregnancies. not that it matters much, rape and abortion will both last as long as humanity lasts.

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Sand
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03 Jan 2010, 5:19 am

Magnus wrote:

Argument: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's a huge responsibility, having children. Who would take care of all these unwanted children? I wouldn't want to be born into that sort of environment.

And the interesting thing about these anti-abortionists is the care little for the children after they're born. They vote against day care funds, funds for education (which requires taxes) and all those other essentials the help a child grow up healthy and aware and able to earn a decent living.

PunkyKat
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03 Jan 2010, 6:48 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

PunkyKat wrote:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/q_facts.asp

People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, abortion is murder.

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DentArthurDent
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03 Jan 2010, 8:17 am

PunkyKat wrote:

People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, abortion is murder.

Don't be so bloody ridiculous, to equate abortion to the murder of a walking talking person is absurd. Aborted foetuses do not have social groups, do not have loved ones who will miss them, do not have families who need their support, are not conscious of the act, etc. etc. etc. If you really believe that sending women back to the old days of dangerous abortions is the solution, then you are foolish and wrong.

Edit = spelling

Last edited by DentArthurDent on 03 Jan 2010, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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