The Bahá'í Faith

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Not being able to see the sun directly does not mean that we must believe any nonsense we say about the sun. Indeed, we can observe the sun by projecting the image of the sun, or special filters. These methods are tested to work in known cases.

Saying we cannot imagine god does not help you. There is no reason to think that the religious leaders really have divine revelations.



So you are admitting that how such government is supposed to work (details are important) is unknown. You just assert that your leaders will figure that out later.

That's essentially why we have a universal house of justice, and a post for an executive - to decide on matters as society progresses. The UHJ legislates on all administrative, economic, and judicial matters not mentioned in the Baha'i writings.

As for now, we are merely a spiritual organisation. The UHJ only legislates on matters of the faith.

Also, I do think it's premature to decide on incorporating non-Baha'is without first consulting them. Consultation can't happen until a Baha'i state in the process of being established.

They're homophobic!

Not really, sillycat. In the East, homosexual people are killed. The Baha'i view is that homosexuality is a concern for medical science, and until a method is found to alter the condition, we rely on encouraging people with the disability to remain chaste. It's not that we are against them loving other homosexuals - it's just that we strongly believe that sex is meant only for human reproduction, and the pleasure principle exists to encourage it.

We love and treat homosexuals with the respect they deserve. We just treat homosexuality as a disability, that's all.

How are homosexuals disabled? They function in society. They seek job, they express themselves artistically, intellectually, and live within a civilized society?

However, the Universal House of Justice, the elected governing body of the Bahá'í Faith, has stated that "the Faith does not recognize homosexuality as a 'natural' or permanent phenomenon- Wikipedia.

- Let's take Autism for an example. We tend to be against a "cure" for Aspergers here, it suits us fine. Yet others believe that Aspergers is not a "natural" phenomenon, for instance our friends at "Autism Speaks". Now, what if some gays and lesbians likewise enjoy being gays and lesbians, there they have LEGALLY married (say in Canada, or California or other gay rights, states)? If the world was a Universal Bahai government. Are they allowed to be with whom they love? Or should they get "cured"?

-"many problems, both physical and psychological. Some are the result of the individual’s own behaviour, some are caused by the circumstances in which he grew up, some are congenital... homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and... he or she should strive to overcome it,

So the Gate of Allah states that: Homosexuals are like this because they experienced some problems in their childhoods, and that this "abormality". is such a problem to affect the individual. Yet again gay people are quite happy with who they are, and they are able to leave functional lives, some gays are quite famous. And the beauties of gay culture has been a very positive expression of human culture.

The World Health Organization defines Disability as follows: "Disabilities is an umbrella term, covering impairments, activity limitations, and participation restrictions. An impairment is a problem in body function or structure; an activity limitation is a difficulty encountered by an individual in executing a task or action; while a participation restriction is a problem experienced by an individual in involvement in life situations. Thus disability is a complex phenomenon, reflecting an interaction between features of a person’s body and features of the society in which he or she lives."

Now I'm not going to argue with you. I've had enough from fanatic Muslims saying that the Bahai's allow homosexuals into the community (thus we are perverted for respecting them), that Baha'is allow sexual promiscuity (we don't) and don't punish violaters with lashes, etc.

Please, I have no place in my heart for any negativity. Fanaticisim and liberalism are two sides of the same coin. We follow a path of moderation and tolerance.

There are many famous homosexual Baha'is such as Mark Tobey.

Pfft, so much for the religion of tolerance of unity, placing judgements on what manner of sexual behaviour consenting adults choose to do with each other. With a view as strong as homosexuality being a disability, I would expect to hear about how the Baha'i faith reconciles that with their other teachings.

And as far as I know, homosexual behaviour is not only "strongly discouraged" among its members, it's flat-out unacceptable.

The issue of sex in the Baha'i faith is quite clear - it is only for reproduction. So, while there is no issue with a homosexual being in love, we make it quite clear that sex is purely to continue the human species. We don't single out homosexual promiscuity when it comes to promiscuity in general, alcoholism, drug abuse, engaging in partisan politics, fanaticism, etc.

Homosexual Baha'is can be elected into the local spiritual assemblies. The guardian, Shoghi Effendi, was fond of Mark Tobey. Mark Tobey was also elected as a member of the local spiritual assembly of Seattle. Every Baha'i in Seattle was aware that he was gay.

It is to my understanding that openly gay people were not ordained as priests in Christianity until recent decades. Mark Tobey became a Baha'i in the 30's. There are no openly gay Imams in Islam till today.

[quote="Khan_Sama"]The World Health Organization defines Disability as follows: "Disabilities is an umbrella term, covering impairments, activity limitations, and participation restrictions. An impairment is a problem in body function or structure; an activity limitation is a difficulty encountered by an individual in executing a task or action; while a participation restriction is a problem experienced by an individual in involvement in life situations. Thus disability is a complex phenomenon, reflecting an interaction between features of a person’s body and features of the society in which he or she lives."


>>> So then by this definition Aspergers is a disability. Should we then get cured then? Oh and thanks for ignorantly side stepping this question of homosexuals who enjoy their "disability", should we cure them, as allegorically exampled by the Aspergers and Autism Speaks, cure example.

How is the "family" destroyed. Straights can of course still have sex with straights and have children to their hearts content. Gays should have this right too. And if it's procreation that's the issue here, there are many methods that can propagate children and the continuation of the genetic linage.

Actually, sillycat, Aspergers is a disability. I don't want to go deep into pro-cure or anti-cure politics. I personally would like a cure. I'd like to look into peoples eyes without that discomfort I always feel. I'd like to know what emotion they have in their eyes. I'd like to know what it is like to be in a group and connect with them, rather than being the odd one out.

As for whether homosexuality is 'curable' or 'preventable' - that's a tough question. We don't know if it's genetic, psychological, or physical. Same applies to AS.

I respect your views on sexual behaviour in the LGBT community - I just don't share them. And I must say, I'm one of those people overjoyed when the Delhi High Court removed the clause in the Indian penal code equating homosexuality with statuary rape (and thus lifetime imprisonment).

I don't side with the Eastern view that sexual promiscuity should be punished, nor the Western view that it should be encouraged. I follow a path of moderation. Sex is purely for reproduction. Love is eternal.

Again you dodge the question. What if people don't want the cure to Aspergers, that it's a very important function in their lives? Of course there are others here who welcome the "disabilities" of Aspergers that it empowers them do to things very well and it benefits them making for a productive and happy life.

Now take this with gays. What if the gays don't want to be cured? They adopt, and bring stability to a child's life (who may or may not be gay), is this not good? Is this not promoting family values and helping the child and the family live a productive happy life?

But you have to recognize that disability is largely a social construct. What is a disability in one situation may be an advantage in another.


It is possible to connect with a group to some extent even if you are autistic. You can learn to recognize emotions in others' eyes, although the discomfort that accompanies eye contact may never go away.

I want some of those same things, but not at the expense of who I am and what makes me the unique as a person. My spatial skills, my memory, my ability to remain detached from my emotions—these are things I am not willing to sacrifice.


The evidence so far appears to support the idea of it being genetic.

But take the hypothetical situation that homosexuality can be neither "cured" nor "prevented." What then? Will homosexuals have a place in your future Baha'i utopia?

It's up to the individual really. Like Orwell just said, he doesn't want to be cured. I personally have no opinions on homosexuals adopting kids and raising them. I live in an Eastern country, and there's only one openly gay individual living in my immediate area. Such a phenomenon is unheard of here (and my country has a sixth of the world's population). I can't give an opinion on an issue which is alien to me, I'm afraid. It's a bit like an American deciding what dowry must be fixed for a Hindu wedding.



Like the issue of abortion, stem cells, etc - the UHJ has decided to pursue the issue in the near future. For now, we are following the instructions the guardian left us.

Like the issue of abortion, stem cells, etc - the UHJ has decided to pursue the issue in the near future. For now, we are following the instructions the guardian left us.[/quote]

Fair enough answer. But neverless I don't welcome any "Utopian" society that laureates the virtues of discrimination.

Well - we all have our own varying definitions of discrimination, don't we?

Meh, i do share quite a few of those beliefs, mostly the humanitarian ones.