PPR Rules 2.0: Hate Speech & Offensive Content

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marshall
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10 Oct 2010, 2:30 am

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

Call me naive or whatever, but wouldn't it be a better world if both blacks and whites stopped making such a big deal about race. As far as I can tell it's mainly black and white americans who are so obsessed with racial identity.


You should get out more. Do you remember what happened between the Hutu and the Tutsie? And what about the clashes between Muslim and Hindu in India? How about the clashes between Catholics and Protestants in Ulster? Bigotry, race hate and group hate are common to the human race which is the only race by the way.

ruveyn


I was talking about the US.


Why single out the U.S.?



Because it's the country I happen to live in.



ruveyn
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10 Oct 2010, 2:34 am

marshall wrote:
Because it's the country I happen to live in.


So do I but I also notice that ungraceful and unpleasant behavior happens in many places outside the U.S.

This country is not nearly as racist as it used to be. But it is also more racist than it should be. But that is true of many countries.

ruveyn



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10 Oct 2010, 2:50 am

While this may not be entirely true it is interesting as an outsider to see a nation so obsessed with race, perhaps this is because as a nation it was built on racist principles [the treatment and dispossession of the first nations, slavery, the treatment of Chinese railway workers and then successive waves of poor Europeans]?
Could it be that this is Karma in effect?


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BigK
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10 Oct 2010, 4:12 am

As Ruveyn says it's the same all over. It's human nature.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3192425.stm

The question is when will the people eventually become one nation?

If a white immigrant learns the language and maybe anglicises their name their children and grand children will be more easily accepted as 'American'.

Whereas a black or Asian person's descendants will still be 'Blacks' or 'Asians'. Catholics will still be Catholics, Muslims & Hindus will still be Muslims and Hindus.

Maybe the anti PC feeling means Americans are more likely to spew hatred openly.
But hate speech is not necessary for debating the issues. It seems that some have so much resentment that it is hard to stop it showing through.

Using hate speech stifles the debate of it deters some people from joining the discussion or even entering the board.
It also increases the chances that the discussion will descend into a flame fest with no real argument.

But still...

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ruveyn
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10 Oct 2010, 11:34 am

BigK wrote:
As Ruveyn says it's the same all over. It's human nature.



The question is when will the people eventually become one nation?



Never, and be thankful for that. I recall some Roman emperor wishing that the people had but one neck so he could put a yoke around it.

ruveyn



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10 Oct 2010, 11:41 am

ruveyn wrote:
BigK wrote:
As Ruveyn says it's the same all over. It's human nature.



The question is when will the people eventually become one nation?



Never, and be thankful for that.


Agreed. I don't want the whole world to be under one organization. That smells like trouble.
People are always going to want to divide themselves into small groups. It's human nature.


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Tensu
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10 Oct 2010, 2:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:
You should get out more. Do you remember what happened between the Hutu and the Tutsie? And what about the clashes between Muslim and Hindu in India? How about the clashes between Catholics and Protestants in Ulster? Bigotry, race hate and group hate are common to the human race which is the only race by the way.

ruveyn


aside from the fey and the merfolk.

which are both totally, undeniably, 100% real.

seriously.

*ahem*

I have several problems with political correctness:

first off the "PC" terms are often much more insulting than the poltically incorrect terms. I would much rather just be labeled "crazy" than be told I have a "mental disorder".
second, we have the euphamism treadmill. If you change the word that refers to your group because the old word was being used as an insult, people will just start using the new word as an insult. it's pointless.
third, the terms don't always make sense. Some people of mesoamerican decent have taken to describing themselves as "Latin". that's not very fair to the Italians, now is it? It would be as if all white people decided they wanted to be called african american from now on.



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10 Oct 2010, 2:27 pm

Tensu wrote:

I have several problems with political correctness


I've always wondered if the term "African American" can be applied to white people from South Africa.


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marshall
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10 Oct 2010, 2:31 pm

What I was trying to say was that in the US there seems to be a strong gravity towards retaining cultural divisions and feelings of inferiority/superiority when it comes to the relationship between blacks and whites. You don't see that kind of thing to the same degree with immigrant communities.



ruveyn
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10 Oct 2010, 2:34 pm

marshall wrote:
What I was trying to say was that in the US there seems to be a strong gravity towards retaining cultural divisions and feelings of inferiority/superiority when it comes to the relationship between blacks and whites. You don't see that kind of thing to the same degree with immigrant communities.


Go to an Indian (Hindi) neighborhood and see what they think about Muslims.

ruveyn



marshall
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10 Oct 2010, 2:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
What I was trying to say was that in the US there seems to be a strong gravity towards retaining cultural divisions and feelings of inferiority/superiority when it comes to the relationship between blacks and whites. You don't see that kind of thing to the same degree with immigrant communities.


Go to an Indian (Hindi) neighborhood and see what they think about Muslims.

ruveyn

It's not a dominant part of US culture though. Most white americans can't tell the difference between Indians and Pakistani's. It only comes up if you ask an Indian where they're from. Then they're oddly insistant in making sure you know that they aren't Muslim.



AngelRho
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10 Oct 2010, 3:23 pm

marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
What I was trying to say was that in the US there seems to be a strong gravity towards retaining cultural divisions and feelings of inferiority/superiority when it comes to the relationship between blacks and whites. You don't see that kind of thing to the same degree with immigrant communities.


Go to an Indian (Hindi) neighborhood and see what they think about Muslims.

ruveyn

It's not a dominant part of US culture though. Most white americans can't tell the difference between Indians and Pakistani's. It only comes up if you ask an Indian where they're from. Then they're oddly insistant in making sure you know that they aren't Muslim.


I'm not sure how relevant this is, but here goes: I've truly enjoyed interacting with the few Hindi people I've gotten to know. We don't really discuss race or religion, but I do try to make some cultural connection with students and their parents. Two students in particular are twins, and based on their names, I correctly guessed which one was born first. The girls themselves had never attached any significant meaning to their names before, or even that names HAD meanings. Beautiful names. The first one means "Perfection" and the other is "The Follower." I have to wonder if they'd have ever discussed it with their mother if I hadn't brought it up!



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10 Oct 2010, 5:39 pm

Hanotaux wrote:
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Can you explain this? I'm genuinely curious.


The construct of Political correctness was formulated by Jewish and Liberal elites and psychiatrists like Dr. Ewen Cameron between the 1950's and 1970's firstly in an effort to prevent the same recurrances of 'racist'/nationalist lexicons that went hand in hand with the Fascist movements of the early 20th century.


Interesting info. I'd never heard of Ewen Cameron before.
Some might say Political Correctness dates back as far as the 1920s where Marxists like Gramsci, Lukacs and the members of the Frankfurt School set about translating Marxism from economic into cultural terms.
(See http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of- ... rrectness/ and http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles- ... arxism.php )

Some might say the West's problems go back further and deeper still. The forces of internationalism (both capitalist and communist) were in evidence long before world war I, as was the liberal obsession with equality and democracy as ends in themselves. But as you point out, things have really taken off post-world-war-2.



Hanotaux
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10 Oct 2010, 8:43 pm

^ Yes, thank you......... i suggest you watch some Adam Curtis documentaries on youtube. In particular this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZw8NRCPmSc (The living dead)

It details more on Ewen Cameron, his work, and others like him who attempted to become "Social engineers," and also rewire humans in the west so that they would naturally eschew or not even be exposed to ideas like Nationalism, which they viewed as dangerous and a step on the road back to Fascism. The elitists felt that they could really internalize internationalist values in people and eradicate those old ideas. They largely worked surreptitiously behind the scences but they were very influential, both in politics and business.

They decided that they needed permanent social controls, because in a true representative republic/democracy with true freedom, people would want "the wrong thing," or merely let their passions carry them off and vote for persuasive demagogues like Hitler. This could not be allowed, so there would have to be natural checks to ensure that people would never be able to take things in such a direction, even if they wanted to. They of course were determined never to allow any majority to ever again have its way and go after Jews or other minorities, and they would use their wealth and disporportional political/social influence to have their own way.

Part of this program was to gradually break down and erode the old majorities in Western countries, and allow immigration to rework the national identity. Eventually, this would be taken to the point of even having the minorities represent the European countries in Politics(Obama, Diane Abbot,) or in every public sphere........ sports, beauty pageants, etc. People would see visible minorities as their representatives and through a process, the old nationalist ideas would be replaced with "the human race," where nation-states were nothing more than geographical expressions.

These ideas began to gestate around the time of the big pogroms in circa-1900........... many educated Russian Jews fled to Germany and mixed with German Jews, and the discussions began on how to change societies in to such a manner where they would not have to deal with hostile gentiles who hated them so as it had been since Roman times. Their literal goal was to emasculate the white populations so that they would never be a threat to them, and possibly as well to import other minorities to deflect anti-semitism into other things, like anti-islamic movements. Of course, this seemed purely hypothetical at the time as nationalism and militarism, as well as the white birthrates, were so fecund in Europ prior to 1914, and the idea of Europe as a gelded shell of itself was unthinkable. After the end of WWI, and creation of the Soviet Union, a real host was opened up for these ideas to get legitimized and passed about. It was only after WWII when fascism became a dead ideology that all of this began to snowball.

I think in America, the real root of the decay goes all the way back to the Civil War and the Southern defeat though. That was the first crack in the armor.



hyperlexian
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12 Oct 2010, 6:30 pm

John_Browning wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hanotaux wrote:
Actually, it would seem that now CONSERVATIVES and Right-Wingers are now the majority in PPR.............. You guys better get used to quoting sources ! !!

Not even the majority of conservatives here agree with your views on 'race'. Sorry, you're still in the minority.

Nobody has to agree with him. As long as he doesn't say anything like "I call on everyone to beat up the (pick a group)", or "I'm going to kill some (pick a group)", it's freedom of speech.

you are approaching this from an american perspective, and although the servers are in the u.s., the WP users are international.
i prefer the canadian approach:

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The Criminal Code prohibits "hate propaganda." The Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on various grounds, and forbids the posting of hateful or contemptuous messages on the Internet.


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hyperlexian
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12 Oct 2010, 6:31 pm

visagrunt wrote:
I am a dyed-in-the-wool, capital "L" Liberal.

And I agree with John Browning.

I consider that "hate speech" is too broad a concept. When Fred Phelps stands at a funeral with a sign that says, "God hates fags," I am offended. I consider that an expression of hatred. But until Phelps crosses the line and starts, for example, to advocate violence, I am not prepared to see him silenced.

Similarly, "offensive," is too subjective a standard. Do we restrict to the lowest common denominator? Does every single member have a veto over posts that they consider, "offensive?" How many does it take? 10? 19,918?

If you come in here and spout a hateful or offensive message, then I think you needs to expect that others are going to come in and call you on it. But to expect an authority to come down from above and silence those opinions that offend you is to invite that same authority to come down and silence you, as well.

no, actually, you are not. not by a long shot. you can convince the americans you are liberal, but you can't fool a fellow canadian.


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