Do liberals seem elitist to you?

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Orwell
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27 Nov 2010, 10:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

I associate elitism with the rich and powerful.

The inventors and the creators in our society are the true elite.

ruveyn

Which is why scientists, engineers, and university professors are paid better than people who shuffle papers around in the financial markets.

Oh wait...

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Master_Pedant
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27 Nov 2010, 11:23 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

How is posting another man's thoughts about some of the problems of today's liberalism suddenly making a mass generalization?

Implying that the modern American liberal movement has a problem with intellectual arrogance is practically equivalent to stating that the modern American conservative movement - especially at its more extreme edges - has a problem with racism.

Dox47 wrote:

Also; flip-flopped? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Whining that the generalization that many very conservative Americans hold racist attitudes that influence their policy-related thinking is wrong yet generalizing that liberals are arrogant is somehow okay indicates a stark flip-flop when it comes to meta-ideological principles (that you claim to enforce as forum "vigilante").

On second thought, it'd be better to say you selectively apply principles to others who hold leftwing views but shelter yourself and other economic rightists from their application (classical hypocrisy).

Dox47 wrote:

Look at your post, the only purpose is to try (again) to discredit me by making a marginal claim of hypocrisy and then attempting (again) to tie me to a questionable ideology which I don't hold.

I noted that arrogance wasn't a particularly liberal problem and that libertarians fester with that problem. You need to pay more attention to what I write if you're going to try responding to it.

Dox47 wrote:

I ought to be flattered that you view me as so threatening that you have to spend so much time trying to preemptively discredit me, but enough is enough already.

You get a lot of gratification as "vigilante" - pushing out moderators and whining to people that they're "generalizing" or "acting like Rove". Somebody had to stop this pretentious nonsense and you really annoyed me with your consistent. hypocritical, and baseless complaints.

I'm only quoting you in order to preserve this for posterity; I don't want it disappearing after you come down from whatever you were on when you wrote this and decide to hide the evidence. Honestly, I'm not going to refute a single thing, it's all so self evidently thin or massively distorted that I'm confident in the membership at large here's ability to see through it, and by extension, you.

I do take back the comparison to Karl Rove, he isn't this shameless, or at the very least wouldn't put his name on such weak ass sh*t.

Quote away, Dox. I'll proudly stand by the fact that I refuse to let you bully me into silence.

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LKL
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28 Nov 2010, 12:13 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Now that I see you've flipped flopped on your stance regarding making generalizations about ideological groups, I'd just like to remind you that many crucial libertarian thinkers like H. L. Mencken and Herbert Spencer were undoubtedly elitist and distained the masses. Indeed, the "stupidity of the masses" as a rebuttal to democratic governance is a key theme among libertarians and Randian thinkers.

How is posting another man's thoughts about some of the problems of today's liberalism suddenly making a mass generalization?

Also; flip-flopped? Seriously? You really ought to change your avatar to something more appropriate, perhaps Karl Rove superimposed on a Canadian flag... Look at your post, the only purpose is to try (again) to discredit me by making a marginal claim of hypocrisy and then attempting (again) to tie me to a questionable ideology which I don't hold. I ought to be flattered that you view me as so threatening that you have to spend so much time trying to preemptively discredit me, but enough is enough already.

Dox47, that would be insulting Karl Rove because Rove doesn't usually try to demonize people like that especially now that he is retired.

hahahahahahah! I get it! You've been pulling a Poe all along. I will take your future posts in the light you meant them to be.

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28 Nov 2010, 12:18 am

Inuyasha wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are leftie elitists as well as rightie elitists, but the latter are usually the ones who are most personally cruel to me.

I've actually seen more cruelty from the left, only they can't even recognize when they are being cruel when it is pointed out to them.

ok, just how has a leftie been personally cruel to you, in terms of making life harder for you with malice aforethought?

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28 Nov 2010, 1:01 am

auntblabby wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are leftie elitists as well as rightie elitists, but the latter are usually the ones who are most personally cruel to me.

I've actually seen more cruelty from the left, only they can't even recognize when they are being cruel when it is pointed out to them.

ok, just how has a leftie been personally cruel to you, in terms of making life harder for you with malice aforethought?

Try harassment via e-mail...

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28 Nov 2010, 1:56 am

Inuyasha wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are leftie elitists as well as rightie elitists, but the latter are usually the ones who are most personally cruel to me.

I've actually seen more cruelty from the left, only they can't even recognize when they are being cruel when it is pointed out to them.

ok, just how has a leftie been personally cruel to you, in terms of making life harder for you with malice aforethought?

Try harassment via e-mail...

well, that is not good. but i also have been the recipient of pointedly vile emails by righties/gay-haters. why can't we all just get along?

Philologos
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28 Nov 2010, 1:59 am

"pulling a Poe?" new one by me, glosses welcome.

Interesting discussion in the car coming come, me and wife:

"Elite" to her means those who through no particular virtue are rich, conspucuous, and / or powerful. She tends to see it as having negative connotations.

Whereas I have always taken "elite" to refer POSITIVELY not to those so labelled by the media, but to the class of aware, clear-headed thinking persons, starting [big surprise] from me, Of course we feel pretty much the same about the elitist wannabes, but very different use of the word.

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28 Nov 2010, 2:17 am

Philologos wrote:

Elite has a few meanings...

1) The established, institutional, hereditary, "old" wealth. Associated with plutocracy and labour-free ownership, parasitic rich - lesuirely class.
2) "The best" - the most advanced, overachievers. "Elite soldiers", "elite scientists", "elite academy", etc. Meritocratic connotations.

ELITIST

1) A supporter of "the elite" (sense 1) or a person who shares their values.
2) Anyone who is arrogant.
3) A supporter of "the elite" (sense 2) or one who shares their values.

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marshall
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28 Nov 2010, 2:43 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Meh. It seems like anyone who vehemently disagrees on a matter of core values is going to be perceived as "arrogant" and hence "elitist". The word loses all meaning. Inuyasha has already thrown the word at me.

ruveyn
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28 Nov 2010, 9:07 am

Elite means the Best, with respect to Merit.

ruveyn

Philologos
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28 Nov 2010, 10:00 pm

So - does anyone KNOW what "pulling a Poe" means?

Orwell
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28 Nov 2010, 10:30 pm

Philologos wrote:

So - does anyone KNOW what "pulling a Poe" means?

It's a reference to Poe's law, which says that it is impossible to make a parody of fundamentalism that won't be mistaken for the real thing. Basically, "pulling a Poe" means someone is doing parody/satire but the group they're parodying is so batshit crazy that people actually think the satirist is being serious.

So LKL is claiming that Inuyasha isn't actually a conservative, but is just doing a very over-exaggerated parody of conservatism that nonetheless seems genuine enough that we didn't catch on to it immediately.

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Inuyasha
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28 Nov 2010, 10:55 pm

Orwell wrote:

Philologos wrote:

So - does anyone KNOW what "pulling a Poe" means?

Yeah I kinda knew it was a derogatory comment, I just wasn't sure what it was specifically and I was busy with something else so I didn't look it up.

Orwell wrote:

So LKL is claiming that Inuyasha isn't actually a conservative, but is just doing a very over-exaggerated parody of conservatism that nonetheless seems genuine enough that we didn't catch on to it immediately.

I hate to break it to LKL then, but I am a Conservative and I am also quite sane. Additionally, contrary to the left's talking points Conservatives aren't evil people in fact they tend to be more charitable than Liberals.

skafather84
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28 Nov 2010, 11:59 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Conservative and I am also quite sane.

Sorry, those terms are mutually exclusive. Try again.

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Inuyasha
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29 Nov 2010, 12:13 am

skafather84 wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Conservative and I am also quite sane.

Sorry, those terms are mutually exclusive. Try again.

And again you prove my point about Liberals being intolerant of others and being full of themselves.

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29 Nov 2010, 12:18 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Philologos wrote:

So - does anyone KNOW what "pulling a Poe" means?

Yeah I kinda knew it was a derogatory comment, I just wasn't sure what it was specifically and I was busy with something else so I didn't look it up.

I can tell you are real if that makes you feel any better. (not being sarcastic)

Quote:

Orwell wrote:

But conservatives seem to support mean policies. If it weren't for liberals there wouldn't be things like unemployment benefits for the laid off or disability income for people who can't work. I don't see why I should trust conservatives who seem to want to bring things back to the way they were around 1930. Conservatives hated pretty much everything FDR did to help the suffering poor during the Great Depression.

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