Are Christians responsible for the hatred of Jews today?

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Or was it "If evil men do nothing, evil still finds a way" ?
Or If good men say "Nothing doing" evil men buy Congress and the Supreme Court.
Or "Doing nothing is all good men can do when evil men run the world"
Or what the hell, the world will end in 2012 anyway.

Look up Edmund Burke

Inuyasha and Pandabear, the reason the Soviet Union was at one time considered pro-Jewish was that Lenin pretended to be pro-Jewish to lure support of prominent socialist Jews. Stalin was not pro-Jewish, but he kept up the fiction of liking Jews until the 50s. The USSR became anti-Jewish in the 50s. After 1964, the USSR became almost as hostile to Jews as the old Imperial regime.
In reality the Soviets were never pro-Jewish, they really didn't trust anyone, even each other.

Uh why did you throw me into your admonishment? I am well aware of those facts TenFaces.

What "agreements" were these? As best I recall what communication there was was little better than extortion, as in pay us some amount and we'll refrain from killing some Jews, and maybe we'll let some Jews out.



And this is the same as Arabs serving in the Israeli parliament, Arabs putting on Israeli uniforms and dying for Israel?



Wow. Mighty big of ya.

[/quote] but that doesn't change the fact that Gaza is in many ways just a huge concentration camp

Any reason in particular that Jews would establish a "concentration camp" that abuts Egyptian territory? (As Gaza does.) Are they that stupid, in the sense that any Palestinian "inmate" of said "concentration camp" who wants to can now get from Gaza into another Arab state with about as much trouble as a Mexican does entering the US? (Presuming, of course, Egyptian cooperation, which as I understand it is a mixed bag.)

This is hardly the same as one train-line running into Auschwitz-Birkenau. That brought in full cars and left with empty ones.



Would it surprise you if I say I agree to an extent with the above statement? However, while true, this is far from the entire story. First, the Palestinian leaders rather stupidly did the work of the Israelis for them, urging their people to flee. Which they did, in large numbers. Second, the Palestinians were promised all sorts of military aid from Egypt, Jordan and so on, that not only never materialized, was used rather cynically (in the case of Jordan) to annex territory that had nothing to do with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Third, the way the original partition was done, there was no way war could be avoided. And finally, propaganda the Palestinians got pretty much non-stop would've made any non-violent solution impossible.

Quite frankly, your original comparison of Israel = NS Germany is nonsense, and the more you participate in this thread the sillier you are sounding. So, I probably will not be responding to any more of your posts on this thread. Life is too short.

My mistake, I was in error in including you, Inuyasha. Your name appeared next to the other. Again, a thousand apologies.

Or rather, atheism involves not believing in any god. No god, none at all. and also probably no other supernatural woo. It is a lack of ideology.

Atheism cannot cause you anti-semitism , it is also true, that it can't prevent it. They are unrelated things whatsoever.

The societies you name are not anti-semitic as a result from their atheism.

It is similar to linking anti-semitism with asperger's syndrome.

I still don't agree with this, but I did some reading and must admit your position is not an unreasonable one, based upon what historians of today say. Unfortunately the only book I have at home that really addressed the topic was Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews (Amazon link), and he does quote several historians who say essentially what you do...but the book also cites a wide range of examples where "conversos" intermarried into upper-class families, and so on.

Interestingly, when the Toledo decree was first issued, the pope at the time actually excommunicated its author. But at that time the Papacy was politically weak and was eventually forced to allow an Inquistion. Torquemada was appointed its leader because he himself had converso blood, and the pope figured it would make him go easier on converts. So much for papal infallibility, I guess.

I know I've read some stuff that tries to rebut a lot of what Carroll says, unfortunately its nothing I own. If I can pick it out of the lumber room that passes for my mind I'll see if I can't get my hands on it.

Thats true.
Anti-semites ( and folks opposed to antisemitism) come in all stripes.
Christian anti-semites commonly hate Jews for killing Christ and threatening Christianity, and athiest antisemites blame the Jews for founding Christianity!

Likewise there are rightwingers who hate jews for being too socialisic and there are leftwing antisemites who hate jews for being too capitalistic, and so on.

It were Romans who did it.

ruveyn

And it was all according to God's plan to forgive humanity for raiding God's orchard. God did it.

No worries, I was just curious.

In a manner of speaking, yes. That was the end result but it was not the intention back in the day.


You need to go back to the days when christianity was nothing more than a sect in the roman empire. The romans were very tolerant of foreign religions as long as taxes were paid.. but this changed when the jewish rebellions in jerusalem seriously threatened the roman empire's hold on the middle east. After the rebellion was crushed (66 AD.. you can read up on the siege of the fortress of Masada for details) the roman empire turned hostile towards any group of people who did not support/offer sacrifice in honor of the roman deities (Juno, Jupiter, etc).

Jews, Christians and other groups were then brutally prosecuted... think of it as the first 'Inquisition' in a matter of speaking. Anyone who did not worship the roman gods was punished .. usually by becoming a part of the entertainment in the roman circus. The romans originally aimed this at the jewish populations as punishment and as a means of supressing any future rebellions based on religion.

Christianity was just under 70 years old and it wasnt an organized religion at all. It was an underground religion that had been gaining popularity in the whole empire. The jewish people on the other hand had an organized religion at the time and it did not take long for the romans to run out of jews to toss into the arena... so the romans turned onto the next big group: the christians.

A century and a half of this went by before a christian bishop named Irenaeus put together the official '4' scriptures of the new testament (out of several dozen that had been circulating) so that the religion could be organized and the followers all share the same core beliefs. This was a survival strategy for the religion as those scriptures steadily vilified the jews as those responsible for the betrayal and death of christ (regardless of the fact that it was the romans that did the killing and an apostle the betraying!). The result was effective: rome backed off and the christian church eventually rose to power in its place.

And as you know, the bible kept the new testament as it is and did not revise it afterwards. Century after century, the little lie that saved the 'faith' from the roman circus became canon law and the vilifying of the jewish people became ingrained into the foundations of western civilization.

Honestly, if Jesus was to offer himself as a sacrifice for their sins, then those jews who called for his death were just helping God's plan along.

The hatred of jews today is inherited from centuries of anti-semitism. My perception of the issue is, when jews/Israelites began moving into Europe, they entered these foreign lands as strangers with odd customs. Things like this generally aren't received well in the recipient country. People were generally xenophobic, and the jews were probably fairly xenophobic themselves. Most accounts on the matter I have come across speak of frustration over jews not integrating. Very religious jews probably would have made a good effort to keep to themselves as many of these regions were probably highly pagan at the time and likely engaged in practices contrary to judaism. However we can be sure there was certainly a degree of mixing between jews and non-jews or Ashkenazi jews would not be so European looking.

While these migrations were happening, Christianity was also spreading, bringing along with it whatever information and rumors, good or bad, about the jews. Many christian rulers had a desire to convert jews to christianity, and usually became quite upset when these efforts failed. Further, these groups of jews who often maintained their own communities within communities tended to do quite well at supporting themselves, and this tended to breed resentment amongst the non-jews. You will find a lot of resentment against the Amish, Hutterites, certain groups of Mormons, and modern Jewish communities for a similar reason.

The Torah allows jews to lend money to non-jews at interest. How many people like their money lenders? Probably not many, especially when one gets themselves into massive debt because they were ignorant as to the way the loan worked, or due to bad fortune. Yet, many jews found themselves in the position of having to be money lenders, which certainly didn't help their image, and is probably the origin of the term "greedy jew"

Modern jews have essentially just inherited all of this hatred, and then the Israel-Palestine conflict, certainly doesn't help.

If you want some hard truth, there are some Hasidic/Haredi communities in major cities who's members are actually quite xenophobic of non-jews. Most of these individuals are 4th generation Hasidim, have little exposure to the outside world, and some actually harbor the same level of mis-trust of non-jews as some non-jews do of jews. As someone from a secular family, I was surprised to discover this. Their way of dealing with potential anti-semitic violence or religious transgressions is to wall themselves in their communities, thereby minimizing their risk. Not all Hasidic communities are like this though.

Of the ones that are, it wouldn't end anti-semitism of they were a little warmer to outsiders (which includes non-orthodox jews as well), but some of them really need to learn some manners and people shouldn't be called anti-semitic for saying so.

Oh yes, and the Romans...that was a little different though. I don't think the Romans thought any differently of the jews/Israelites than they did of any of the people of the other lands they occupied. They may have better identified with pagans though. The jews/Israelites probably seemed like religious nuts.

Blame, flame and game topiC

Many human beings blame another group for their own misfortune. There is a whole psychology/pathology around it.

Members of a hated group often tried the strategy of trying to escape it. Perhaps then these members would then be liked and accepted, to be part of a favoured group. Of course we know of one dictator in history for whom this strategy was not an option.

I must admit I have never read the Talmud, but if what you say is a fact, so what? Just because one group says they are better than others, this should not be taken seriously. But then you might argue that it is a conspiracy, and, like Pinky and the Brain, or Osama bin Laden, conspire to take over the world, from the relative safety of cage and cave.

I would not take it seriously if you, Sal, mentioned over coffee that you and your group were superior to me. I would probably wish you good luck and pay for my coffee, then leave you to bask in your superior glow, also known as paranoid delusion.

There is a tome written by the aforementioned dictator in which he proclaimed superiority for he and his ethnic group. He also discussed what to do to save his favoured race from the superiority of the Jewish people. The result of his "struggle" was millions upon millions dead in a dozen years of his regime of war and destruction.

Group superiority is a paranoid myth. Get over it, drink up your beverage, and move on.

Next.

Yes, just like all Muslims are responsible for 9/11. Oh, and all Muslims hate Jews, just like every single Christian hates Jews.