Page 5 of 43 [ 680 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 43  Next

leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

21 Apr 2011, 3:44 pm

wefunction wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
:lol: I assume you mean its odd that the instrument of Jesus' death is the symbol of his worship? I have always wondered about that. Then again, there is that fish symbol, so I guess there is some choice in the matter


...No. It's not a symbol of his death but of the ultimate sacrifice. There's a difference to those of us who believe.

I believe the man in question died as reported, although I do believe "stake" or "tree" is likely more accurate than "cross". In any case, however, I still take issue with the following highlights:

Quote:
On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
the emblem of suffering and shame;
and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
for a world of lost sinners was slain.
Refrain:
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown
.

2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
has a wondrous attraction for me;
for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
to bear it to dark Calvary.
(Refrain)

3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
a wondrous beauty I see,
for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
to pardon and sanctify me.
(Refrain)

4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
its shame and reproach gladly bear;
then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
where his glory forever I'll share.
(Refrain)

We certainly need to let the author of that old rugged song have a bit of metaphorical license or whatever, but far too many Christians seem to me to have since literalised those things into believe-or-be-damned doctrine.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Last edited by leejosepho on 21 Apr 2011, 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

21 Apr 2011, 3:52 pm

wefunction wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
:lol: I assume you mean its odd that the instrument of Jesus' death is the symbol of his worship? I have always wondered about that. Then again, there is that fish symbol, so I guess there is some choice in the matter


...No. It's not a symbol of his death but of the ultimate sacrifice. There's a difference to those of us who believe.


Sorry, no offense intended by that, was just wondering. I'm not an ex-Christian or anything so I don't have that sort of understanding of it from learning in Church or from parents. I just like history so my interest in Christianity and other religions is more or less based in anthropology. That's very interesting though, and I understand the symbol better


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Moog
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 17,671
Location: Untied Kingdom

21 Apr 2011, 3:55 pm

Vigilans wrote:
:lol: I assume you mean its odd that the instrument of Jesus' death is the symbol of his worship? I have always wondered about that. Then again, there is that fish symbol, so I guess there is some choice in the matter


There's a church near me that has a symbol with a cross kinda, erm, penetrating a fish. I believe it's actually symbolic of the old 'Lingam' and 'Yoni' thing. Which strikes me as strange on a Christian church, but it makes sense to me as all the religions mash together in my mind. I think they are all very interesting and meaningful in some way.

There's several Indian shops in the city that have that symbol too and it makes me giggle, because I'm childish. Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


_________________
Not currently a moderator


leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

21 Apr 2011, 4:05 pm

Vigilans wrote:
wefunction wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
:lol: I assume you mean its odd that the instrument of Jesus' death is the symbol of his worship? I have always wondered about that. Then again, there is that fish symbol, so I guess there is some choice in the matter


...No. It's not a symbol of his death but of the ultimate sacrifice. There's a difference to those of us who believe.


Sorry, no offense intended by that, was just wondering. I'm not an ex-Christian or anything so I don't have that sort of understanding of it from learning in Church or from parents. I just like history so my interest in Christianity and other religions is more or less based in anthropology. That's very interesting though, and I understand the symbol better

Much editorial comment could be made about the matter of "Cross, pole or stake?", but there are other people here on WP more qualified for that ...
Quote:
Up until the late 30's the [JW WatchTower] pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross. However, while later eliminating the cross as well as the name of Jesus on their front cover, they continued to use a watch tower as their symbol. In the book Enemies, President J.F. Rutherford attacked the traditional story of the cross as wrong because "The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the [birth] and death of Christ." (pages 188-189) With no accompanying historical or archaeological evidence, Rutherford stated his new doctrine as fact. Actually, what pagans did with crosses before the death of Christ has nothing to do with how the Romans crucified people. Besides, Jesus did not choose his instrument of death.

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jesus ... stake.html

Note: "What pagans did with crosses before the death of Christ has nothing to do with anything today" is the same kind of argument Christmas-and-Easter Christians use for practicing pagan rituals today!


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

21 Apr 2011, 4:09 pm

Moog wrote:
Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


Your Shivalingam will be moving this thread to Adult next not PPR and Kali will be hot on your tail! :lol:



Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

21 Apr 2011, 4:09 pm

Moog wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
:lol: I assume you mean its odd that the instrument of Jesus' death is the symbol of his worship? I have always wondered about that. Then again, there is that fish symbol, so I guess there is some choice in the matter


There's a church near me that has a symbol with a cross kinda, erm, penetrating a fish. I believe it's actually symbolic of the old 'Lingam' and 'Yoni' thing. Which strikes me as strange on a Christian church, but it makes sense to me as all the religions mash together in my mind. I think they are all very interesting and meaningful in some way.

There's several Indian shops in the city that have that symbol too and it makes me giggle, because I'm childish. Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


:lol: :lol:
There are festivals in Japan for their Shinto religion that involve a group of young men (monks, probably) carrying an enormous sculpted penis through the streets, then ritually throwing it through the doors of the temple (aka - the vagina). Now that is a fertility festival


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Moog
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 17,671
Location: Untied Kingdom

21 Apr 2011, 4:12 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Moog wrote:
Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


Your Shivalingam will be moving this thread to Adult next not PPR and Kali will be hot on your tail! :lol:


Commme onnn, we've all got one.

:oops:


_________________
Not currently a moderator


TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

21 Apr 2011, 4:20 pm

Moog wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Moog wrote:
Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


Your Shivalingam will be moving this thread to Adult next not PPR and Kali will be hot on your tail! :lol:


Commme onnn, we've all got one.

:oops:


I've not embarrassed you again have I? :lol: Anyway, only half the population have one. :P



Moog
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 17,671
Location: Untied Kingdom

21 Apr 2011, 4:27 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Moog wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Moog wrote:
Shiva/Shakti superstore, and then a big sign of a symbolic phallus penetrating a vagina. Nice.


Your Shivalingam will be moving this thread to Adult next not PPR and Kali will be hot on your tail! :lol:


Commme onnn, we've all got one.

:oops:


I've not embarrassed you again have I? :lol: Anyway, only half the population have one. :P


The other half have the other one. And then there's maybe a few with both


_________________
Not currently a moderator


hale_bopp
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2004
Gender: Female
Posts: 17,054
Location: None

21 Apr 2011, 6:40 pm

TallyMan wrote:
To do otherwise it would be called witchcraft instead.


Funny that so much so called "witch craft" in the past is now acceptable science. New discoveries by open minds.



hale_bopp
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2004
Gender: Female
Posts: 17,054
Location: None

21 Apr 2011, 6:42 pm

leejosepho wrote:
we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all


Well said. In one word; Ignorance.



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

21 Apr 2011, 7:06 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all


Well said. In one word; Ignorance.

Yes, or maybe arrogance!

EGO = Edging God Out


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

23 Apr 2011, 10:11 am

hale_bopp wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
To do otherwise it would be called witchcraft instead.


Funny that so much so called "witch craft" in the past is now acceptable science. New discoveries by open minds.


Yes.

"Science" presented a hypothesis, tested said hypothesis, reviewed the results, and repeated them. The "witchcraft" that proved to have real benefits is now in the realm of "science," not because "witchcraft" is valid, but because what was once thought of as "witchcraft" turned out to be rooted in the mundane, physical world. "Witchcraft" is no longer required to explain the phenomena it had previously been called on to explain.

Have an "open-mind," but not so open your brain falls out.

Furthermore, science and skepticism has absolutely nothing to do with being "closed-minded." Science is a method of gathering information about the physical world through observation and testing. Nothing more. If your comfortable investing your beliefs in claims with little to no physical evidence to support them, that's your choice, but, as a skeptic, I accept nothing without question and prefer science to other methods because, in my view, it has proven much more reliable and beneficial than blind faith alone. That does not make me "closed-minded," merely circumspect.

Quote:
Yes, or maybe arrogance!

EGO = Edging God Out


No.

"Science" does not discount the possibility that a god (ghosts/unicorns/fairies/psychic powers/ect.) exist, it merely states that there is currently no good physical evidence to support such a notion. And science primarily deals with things that can be measured; if something cannot be measured, science doesn't bother with it, which isn't the same as saying it doesn't exist, merely that we can find no evidence of it at this time.

Honestly, I'll never understand folks who seem to want to paint scientists as a group of cackling mad people who hand down dogmas, squash any and all dissent, and conspire to conceal the existence of Bigfoot and alien abductions. It's an information-gathering method....that's it. It's proven very reliable. The overwhelming bulk of human civilization is built on it.

Of course, the scientific method isn't the ONLY method for gathering information, or for deciding "truth," it's just the one people like myself prefer.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


Last edited by XFilesGeek on 23 Apr 2011, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

23 Apr 2011, 10:26 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
To do otherwise it would be called witchcraft instead.


Funny that so much so called "witch craft" in the past is now acceptable science. New discoveries by open minds.


Yes.

"Science" presented a hypothesis, tested said hypothesis, reviewed the results, and repeated them. The "witchcraft" that proved to have real benefits is now in the realm of "science," not because "witchcraft" is valid, but because what was once thought of as "witchcraft" turned out to be rooted in the mundane, physical world. "Witchcraft" is no longer required to explain the phenomena it had previously been called on to explain.

Have an "open-mind," but not so open your brain falls out.

Furthermore, science and skepticism has absolutely nothing to do with being "closed-minded." Science is a method of gathering information about the physical world through observation and testing. Nothing more. If your comfortable investing your beliefs in claims with little to no physical evidence to support them, that's your choice, but, as a skeptic, I accept nothing without question and prefer science to other methods because, in my view, it has proven much more reliable and beneficial than blind faith alone. That does not make me "closed-minded," merely circumspect.

Quote:
Yes, or maybe arrogance!

EGO = Edging God Out


No.

"Science" does not discount the possibility that a god (ghosts/unicorns/fairies/psychic powers/ect.) exist, it merely states that there is currently no good physical evidence to support such a notion. And science primarily deals with things that can be measured; if something cannot be measured, science doesn't bother with it, which isn't the same as saying it doesn't exist, merely that we can find no evidence of it at this time.

Honestly, I'll never understand folks who seem to want to paint scientists as a group of cackling mad people who hand down dogmas and squash any and all dissent while conspiring to conceal the existence of Bigfoot and alien abductions. It's an information-gathering method....that's it. It's proven very reliable. The overwhelming bulk of human civilization is built on it.

The scientific method isn't the ONLY method for gathering information, or for deciding "truth," it's just the one people like myself prefer.


Besides, in science, there's something called peer review.

Religion and witchcraft both don't have that. Just dogmas and assertions not based on conclusive evidence.



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

23 Apr 2011, 10:33 am

MCalavera wrote:
... in science, there's something called peer review.

Religion and witchcraft both don't have that ...

I do not know about witchcraft, but plenty of "peer review" actually does take place within religion all the time or there would not be so many sects and denominations made up of people continually talking about each others' beliefs and practices ... and it is from there that others of us can then make our own non-peer reviews such as any possible scientific investigation.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Last edited by leejosepho on 23 Apr 2011, 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

23 Apr 2011, 10:33 am

MCalavera wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
To do otherwise it would be called witchcraft instead.


Funny that so much so called "witch craft" in the past is now acceptable science. New discoveries by open minds.


Yes.

"Science" presented a hypothesis, tested said hypothesis, reviewed the results, and repeated them. The "witchcraft" that proved to have real benefits is now in the realm of "science," not because "witchcraft" is valid, but because what was once thought of as "witchcraft" turned out to be rooted in the mundane, physical world. "Witchcraft" is no longer required to explain the phenomena it had previously been called on to explain.

Have an "open-mind," but not so open your brain falls out.

Furthermore, science and skepticism has absolutely nothing to do with being "closed-minded." Science is a method of gathering information about the physical world through observation and testing. Nothing more. If your comfortable investing your beliefs in claims with little to no physical evidence to support them, that's your choice, but, as a skeptic, I accept nothing without question and prefer science to other methods because, in my view, it has proven much more reliable and beneficial than blind faith alone. That does not make me "closed-minded," merely circumspect.

Quote:
Yes, or maybe arrogance!

EGO = Edging God Out


No.

"Science" does not discount the possibility that a god (ghosts/unicorns/fairies/psychic powers/ect.) exist, it merely states that there is currently no good physical evidence to support such a notion. And science primarily deals with things that can be measured; if something cannot be measured, science doesn't bother with it, which isn't the same as saying it doesn't exist, merely that we can find no evidence of it at this time.

Honestly, I'll never understand folks who seem to want to paint scientists as a group of cackling mad people who hand down dogmas and squash any and all dissent while conspiring to conceal the existence of Bigfoot and alien abductions. It's an information-gathering method....that's it. It's proven very reliable. The overwhelming bulk of human civilization is built on it.

The scientific method isn't the ONLY method for gathering information, or for deciding "truth," it's just the one people like myself prefer.


Besides, in science, there's something called peer review.

Religion and witchcraft both don't have that. Just dogmas and assertions not based on conclusive evidence.


Exactly.

And I hear James Randi is still offering a million dollars to who ever can prove a paranormal event. Some of our resident "psychic Aspies" who live on benefits might be interested in taking up that offer. :wink:


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)