Does space matter to you?

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dionysian
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22 May 2011, 1:41 am

It is not important to me. I've been told this before: "I need space." I don't get it.

Sand
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22 May 2011, 2:18 am

dionysian wrote:

It is not important to me. I've been told this before: "I need space." I don't get it.

No doubt you don't need theoretical physics, basic research in the intricacies of cell structure, geological investigation of the movements of continents, meteorologic analysis of atmospheric components, investigative analysis of robotic intelligence, the basics of the origin of the universe, the cosmic processes of star formation and dissolution, etc.,etc.. But all of modern life grows out of these rather targetless investigations as they reveal new revolutionary concepts that are now found in and are basic to modern life. You have no idea as to what you might "need" and no one else does either until new ideas and data reveal it.

ruveyn
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22 May 2011, 7:32 am

Sand wrote:

dionysian wrote:

It is not important to me. I've been told this before: "I need space." I don't get it.

Exactly. There is not a theoretical investigation, no pursuit so abstract and seemingly detached that we can say for sure it will not amount to anything. That is why basic science is always worthwhile pursuing.

Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it. Government exists to protect our lives and property from wrongful aggressors, to keep the peace and to settle disputes peacefully. Any more than that is tyranny and mischief.

ruveyn

Sand
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22 May 2011, 9:11 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

dionysian wrote:

It is not important to me. I've been told this before: "I need space." I don't get it.

It's pleasant we agree on something. It is not your prerogative to determine the functions of government. Anyone with the nervous system of a starfish can perceive that the government is wildly unsatisfactory in many ways but your, perhaps psychotic, insistence that the government conform to your extremely limited outlook is surprising in an individual who demonstrates a familiarity with a good variety of things. The government is what we make it and it can be anything from very good to very bad as clearly demonstrated by history and current events.

psychohist
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22 May 2011, 7:27 pm

Sand wrote:

psychohist wrote:

Pretty sure the Mayflower, full of religious separatists, was not financed by the government. The London/Virginia company, which founded Jamestown, had a crown charter but was also privately financed.

The demonstration that there were private contributions to exploration and development does not in any way negate the importance of government in these matters. Throughout history to the present time both government and private sources were involved in human activities with both good and bad results from both sources.

Indeed, not only does it show that government participation can be useful, it helps elucidate the government's proper role. In these cases, the government didn't finance anything, but did implicitly provide military protection against the competing governments of the day. Both of these - the government's refraining from direct spending, and the provision of military protection against competing governments - seem applicable to space as well.

In the case of the Mayflower, the government also helped encourage settlement through religious persecution, but I'm less convinced of the wisdom of that approach with respect to outer space.

Master_Pedant wrote:

You do know that the important voyages to chart out the land and start the fisheries that made North America so attractive for future explorers was financed by the government, right? John Cabot's 1492 visit to Newfoundland was well before the Mayflower.

Those on the Mayflower weren't looking for fisheries. Nor did Cabot - whose visit was in 1497, not 1492, contrary to your statement - discover the fisheries, which were already being used by the basques throughout that century.

iamnotaparakeet
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22 May 2011, 7:40 pm

psychohist wrote:

In the case of the Mayflower, the government also helped encourage settlement through religious persecution, but I'm less convinced of the wisdom of that approach with respect to outer space.

The British government wasn't intending to encourage them to be colonists to the New World, they were just being jerks because the other Protestants weren't Anglican and if you weren't Anglican you were a heretic and thereby subhuman in their eyes back then.

ruveyn
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22 May 2011, 7:55 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

psychohist wrote:

In the case of the Mayflower, the government also helped encourage settlement through religious persecution, but I'm less convinced of the wisdom of that approach with respect to outer space.

The Mayflower expedition was financed and planned in Holland, not England.

The Puritans were staying in Holland when they planned the expedition to America. Their plan was to land in Virginia. They missed.

The Mayflower - along with its master and part-owner, Christopher Jones - was engaged in London to carry the Leiden group to America. A smaller ship called the Speedwell was purchased and outfitted in Holland to accompany the Mayflower. The Separatist group planned to use Speedwell as a fishing boat in the New World. No one in their congregation knew much about fishing, but they thought it would help pay off their debts to the Merchant Adventurers.

ruveyn

iamnotaparakeet
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22 May 2011, 8:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

psychohist wrote:

In the case of the Mayflower, the government also helped encourage settlement through religious persecution, but I'm less convinced of the wisdom of that approach with respect to outer space.

Who were the passengers and where were they from? Were they from Holland?

simon_says
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22 May 2011, 9:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it.

Fortunately your opinion is the minority. Else we wouldn't have the Hubble Space Telescope and all the rest.

dionysian
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22 May 2011, 10:10 pm

simon_says wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it.

Fortunately your opinion is the minority. Else we wouldn't have the Hubble Space Telescope and all the rest.

And if such ideology was extended to other pursuits, none of us would be able to complain about the government on the internet... (You know, because it wouldn't exist.)

MDD123
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23 May 2011, 11:37 am

dionysian wrote:

simon_says wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it.

Fortunately your opinion is the minority. Else we wouldn't have the Hubble Space Telescope and all the rest.

And if such ideology was extended to other pursuits, none of us would be able to complain about the government on the internet... (You know, because it wouldn't exist.)

Are you saying that DARPA (a government entity) didn't establish the original internet?

ruveyn
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23 May 2011, 11:53 am

MDD123 wrote:

dionysian wrote:

simon_says wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it.

Fortunately your opinion is the minority. Else we wouldn't have the Hubble Space Telescope and all the rest.

And if such ideology was extended to other pursuits, none of us would be able to complain about the government on the internet... (You know, because it wouldn't exist.)

Are you saying that DARPA (a government entity) didn't establish the original internet?

For legitimate reasons of national defense. But it took private firms to make its successor a major asset to the society.

The government cannot even make the post office run at a profit.

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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23 May 2011, 12:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Without the government initiating basic work in electronics, communication, nuclear energy and particle physics, astronautics, and several other basic areas rocketry would be still concerned with the celebrations of the Fourth of July and New Years.

Robert Goddard and Werner v. Braun were making rockets without the government.

The basic principles of guidance and cooling were found by private efforts.

The electric light bulb and the generating systems that make them glow were developed without the government.

The transistor was invented at Bell Lab, without government oversight.

Automobile and Diesel engines were invented and developed and sold without the government.

The Wright Brothers developed a working flyer with $1200 of their own money.

Langley produced three -failed- airplanes with a $50,000 grant from Congress one year before the Wrights developed a successful flyer with their own money.

and so on and so on and so on.

ruveyn

Von Braun was a German scientist whom we took over to the US following World War II.

ruveyn
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23 May 2011, 12:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Von Braun was a German scientist whom we took over to the US following World War II.

It was v. Braun who said: "I aim for the stars. But sometimes I hit London and Antwerp".

We should have hanged that nazi thug.

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 23 May 2011, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Inuyasha
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23 May 2011, 12:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Von Braun was a German scientist whom we took over to the US following World War II.

It was v. Braun who said: "I am for the stars. But sometimes I hit London and Antwerp".

We should have hanged that nazi thug.

ruveyn

We took Von Braun because the Soviets were taking German scientists at an alarming pace. Also Von Braun designed the Saturn V rocket that got us to the moon.

ruveyn
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23 May 2011, 12:45 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

We took Von Braun because the Soviets were taking German scientists at an alarming pace. Also Von Braun designed the Saturn V rocket that got us to the moon.

We build them good in the Fatherland.

That Saturn V was useless for defense. Better the Atlas and Titan rockets.

ruveyn

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