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Why are so many normal things considered a sin?

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leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 6:35 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
It is normal to want to be happy, joyous and free, and being a slave unto oneself misses the mark. So then, and while all things can be permissible, Self-Inflicted Nonsense (S.I.N.) still makes no sense at all. For example:

1) Masturbation robs oneself of the opportunity to achieve satisfaction while offering pleasure to one's own mate;

What's the mechanism by which you believe this happens?

Self-indulgence being/becoming its own reward.


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CrinklyCrustacean
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11 Jun 2011, 6:45 am

Sand wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
I can't say masturbation by a non-christian or someone who hasn't been confirmed is a sin. It's those who have devoted themselves to Christ (via Confirmation), and promised to suffer with him, who are committing a sin.

No, that's not true. According to the Christian faith everybody sins, theists and atheists alike.
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
The point of the Church is to suffer with Christ. And if we intend on suffering, we have to overcome worldly desires.

No, that's not true. Suffering is not the goal, of being a Christian.
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
This isn't exactly the official stance of the church. This is my personal conclusion.

I hope not, but I'm curious as to how you have come to this conclusion. It's unlike any version of Christianity I've heard of, and doesn't match up with the bible.

Sand wrote:
It's money in the bank for the church since only the church can forgive sins and very frequently forgiveness come at a high price.

No, even the church can't forgive sins. Only God can. You don't even have to be inside a church or in front of a priest, or within 1,000 miles of the nearest human being in order to be forgiven, but you do have to ask God for it. Fortunately, forgiveness is free of charge. That is, so far as I understand, the official stance of the Christian faith. In fact, free forgiveness is one of the defining features of Christianity.


To deny that the church has a role in intervening between the adherent and God is to be totally blind to reality. And the immense wealth of many divisions of the churches of various religions is also not facing reality, whatever the ideals may seem to be.

I never said the church didn't have a role in intervening between God and the Christian, I said that the church wasn't necessary for forgiveness to be given, which is not the same thing at all. Additionally, do you and I come from a different culture or country? I've lived in England and New Zealand, and in neither country have I seen any churches whose interest is in making a profit.



Sand
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11 Jun 2011, 6:52 am

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Sand wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
I can't say masturbation by a non-christian or someone who hasn't been confirmed is a sin. It's those who have devoted themselves to Christ (via Confirmation), and promised to suffer with him, who are committing a sin.

No, that's not true. According to the Christian faith everybody sins, theists and atheists alike.
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
The point of the Church is to suffer with Christ. And if we intend on suffering, we have to overcome worldly desires.

No, that's not true. Suffering is not the goal, of being a Christian.
USMCnBNSFdude wrote:
This isn't exactly the official stance of the church. This is my personal conclusion.

I hope not, but I'm curious as to how you have come to this conclusion. It's unlike any version of Christianity I've heard of, and doesn't match up with the bible.

Sand wrote:
It's money in the bank for the church since only the church can forgive sins and very frequently forgiveness come at a high price.

No, even the church can't forgive sins. Only God can. You don't even have to be inside a church or in front of a priest, or within 1,000 miles of the nearest human being in order to be forgiven, but you do have to ask God for it. Fortunately, forgiveness is free of charge. That is, so far as I understand, the official stance of the Christian faith. In fact, free forgiveness is one of the defining features of Christianity.


To deny that the church has a role in intervening between the adherent and God is to be totally blind to reality. And the immense wealth of many divisions of the churches of various religions is also not facing reality, whatever the ideals may seem to be.

I never said the church didn't have a role in intervening between God and the Christian, I said that the church wasn't necessary for forgiveness to be given, which is not the same thing at all. Additionally, do you and I come from a different culture or country? I grew up in England and now live in New Zealand, and in neither country have I seen any churches whose main interest is in making money.


There is no doubt that there are sects in the USA devoted to enriching the churches and providing the leaders with a good life. And the Catholic Church has a centuries old policy of acquiring riches. And of course none of them proclaims this as their target but power and money and religion have gone hand in hand for the entire life of civilization.It's impossible not to notice this.



leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 7:02 am

Sand wrote:
... power and money and religion have gone hand in hand for the entire life of civilization ...

Not necessarily all religion, and neither is that combination exclusive. To wit:

Power and money at least equally go hand-in-hand with politics and economics.


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Sand
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11 Jun 2011, 7:05 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
... power and money and religion have gone hand in hand for the entire life of civilization ...

Not necessarily all religion, and neither is that combination exclusive. To wit:

Power and money at least equally go hand-in-hand with politics and economics.


And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion? Are you that naive?



ruveyn
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11 Jun 2011, 7:11 am

Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
... power and money and religion have gone hand in hand for the entire life of civilization ...

Not necessarily all religion, and neither is that combination exclusive. To wit:

Power and money at least equally go hand-in-hand with politics and economics.


And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion? Are you that naive?


He might be. He thinks God cured him of a Bad Habit.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 7:15 am

Sand wrote:
And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion?

Not at all, and why did you begin talking about me again?!

In any case, it is people who pursue money and power ... and then religion just happens to be one venue.


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leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 7:16 am

ruveyn wrote:
He might be. He thinks God cured him of a Bad Habit.

Please carefully place your cheap shots within your wazoo, my fellow! :wink:


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Sand
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11 Jun 2011, 7:28 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion?

Not at all, and why did you begin talking about me again?!

In any case, it is people who pursue money and power ... and then religion just happens to be one venue.


But of course I absolutely agree that all those religions with no people in them are totally free of avarice and a hunger for power.



leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 7:32 am

Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion?

Not at all, and why did you begin talking about me again?!

In any case, it is people who pursue money and power ... and then religion just happens to be one venue.

But of course I absolutely agree that all those religions with no people in them are totally free of avarice and a hunger for power.

So then, would it not logically follow to equally decry all politics and economics?

At best, and along whatever line, it is disingenuous to blame religion any more than either of those.


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Sand
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11 Jun 2011, 7:36 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
And is it really deniable that the church is neck deep in both politic and religion?

Not at all, and why did you begin talking about me again?!

In any case, it is people who pursue money and power ... and then religion just happens to be one venue.

But of course I absolutely agree that all those religions with no people in them are totally free of avarice and a hunger for power.

So then, would it not logically follow to equally decry all politics and economics?

At best, and along whatever line, it is disingenuous to blame religion any more than either of those.


Where did you get the crazy idea I am blaming religion for being any more avaricious or power hungry than politics and economics? Obviously they are all involved. Why deny it?



leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 7:40 am

Sand wrote:
Where did you get the crazy idea I am blaming religion for being any more avaricious or power hungry than politics and economics? Obviously they are all involved. Why deny it?

Just looking for a bit of fair billing is all. :wink:


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Sand
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11 Jun 2011, 7:44 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
Where did you get the crazy idea I am blaming religion for being any more avaricious or power hungry than politics and economics? Obviously they are all involved. Why deny it?

Just looking for a bit of fair billing is all. :wink:


Right. And when we get into discussions of politics or economics I will be sure to include some remarks about religion to make you happy.



leejosepho
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11 Jun 2011, 8:08 am

Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
Where did you get the crazy idea I am blaming religion for being any more avaricious or power hungry than politics and economics? Obviously they are all involved. Why deny it?

Just looking for a bit of fair billing is all. :wink:

Right. And when we get into discussions of politics or economics I will be sure to include some remarks about religion to make you happy.

Nah, that would have been expected.


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