psychoanalysis

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what do you consider to be the state of nature, and how can it not be reconciled with civilisation?

In nature there is evidence of authority and society. Bees, Ants etc have hierarchies in the structure of their nests. It is as though humans are trying to force ourselves into that scenario. Now imagine if genetic engineering takes place and we end up with a Brave New World type future. We could end up the mamalian equivelent of a bee hive, or Ants nest.

do you think authority is a prerequisite of civilisation?

If by civilisation we mean simple pottery and farming then no. But if we mean the building of cities then yes.

Mankind has not lived in a "state of nature" for over 10,000 years. All humans live in societies, the most primitive of which are extended families and the most complicated of which are large collection of non-blood related folk united by language and culture.

ruveyn

that's what i was getting at.

Good question.

I suppose I'm thinking of a situation where 'might is right' ie, where the strongest tend to get their way at the expense of others. A situation where there are no rules governing behaviour other than those that the strongest enforce in practice. A situation where there is nothing stopping us from getting what we want apart from the consequences of that.

Actually, that's starting to sound a lot like civilization, and I suppose that should be no surprise as natural tendencies must try to come out one way or another. I think the question could be whether civilization will only ever really benefit the strong. Going back to the riots, as an example, perhaps here we see a threat to the strong. Will the strong make concessions to the weak? Perhaps only if the upsurge of the weak is a threat to the strong's position.

That's one angle on your question. Excuse the simplistic language where appropriate.

but egalitarian societies have existed, though. how would you explain it?

Even in such societies there is a hierarchy, even if it is informal and not decreed by law. Some people are more equal than others.

Among the Primates there is always an alpha male.

ruveyn

for example...

Where? Give examples. And how long have they last as egalitarian societies?

It is natural for humans to create hierarchies. That is part of our primate nature. Somewhere, somehow there is an alpha male.

ruveyn

!kung, mbuti pygmies, khoi, inuit peoples among many examples.

I laugh at the irony of the concept of an alpha male in a heirarchy. For if there was one, he would live a life specifically to be such, and in doing so be the one being controlled by the masses, and not the one in control. The only way to the top is to play the game, live the game, and become the game, to the point where there is no longer the you you started as, it has been consumed in the process...

He who lives freely is the true alpha, and you will not find him in elected possitions, for he relents to no force that attempts to persuade or cajole. You will likely find him in the grave, where he chose to go as his last act of freedom in defiance to any opposition.

That is an alpha, if you ask me. Not some elected pondscum.

interesting perspective.

I'm sorry but I don't have enough personal interest riding on the question of whether or not authority is inherent to civilization to warrant researching the details of some distant cultures to see what is going on there. I can only really talk about the western culture that I know a little bit about. I would be interested if you would like to develop your own view of the question of civilization and authority and trauma as you have been asking a lot of questions and you are obviously thinking about this as a question that concerns you.

Psychoanalysis is bollocks. A lot of Sigmund Freud's techniques were pretty useless and it was really only pretending to empathise with a person. Did you know he has a nephew called Edward Bernays who was a father of a system of allistic BS called public relations (PR) it is all pretence and advertisers manipulate society by using psychoanalytical means to buy one product or another or to believe in a certain ideology. He persuaded women to smoke by connecting it with unconscious penis envy in women and told them if they smoked then they would have their own penis. It was to do with making women feel powerful but it was all lies and deceit. This was in a documentary called the century of the self by Adam Curtis.