Marine critical of Obama faces charge

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NarcissusSavage
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24 Mar 2012, 11:50 am

Ancalagon wrote:

NarcissusSavage wrote:

Was he in uniform while making internet posts? Is that even relevant??

"In uniform" is sometimes used to mean "as a member of the military" rather than literally wearing a uniform as clothing.

Unless the article is grossly wrong about the facts, he did take political actions while representing himself as a member of the military.

Quote:

He has not broken rules, regs, or laws by his actions.

There is a thing in the UCMJ that is called the "general article". With that, they can get you for things that weren't specifically spelled out as prohibited. Yes, it really is that open-ended.

I don't believe you're correct about his not breaking the letter of any rules, laws or regulations, but if you were right they could still get him on it. That's without discussing orders, which he has also broken.

I very clearly know where the line in the sand is between what a service member can and cannot do politically. I was politically active while a member of the military. I was not always critique free of the government in place or the policies they enacted. But I never did so while representing my status as a soldier. That was always my saving grace.

In this context "in uniform" means literally wearing a US military uniform. The line reads "Military personnel in uniform..." You don't translate that to "Military personnel who are in the military"... that's just silly.

But, from what I read in the OPs linked story, he has not crossed the line in the sand either. He did not disobey any orders. He was not in uniform. He is not a commissioned officer. I see no issue with his actions.

What, specifically, do you guys think he did that violated the law(incl. military law)? You mention the article says he took political action while representing himself as a service member. What action was that? I didn't read that line apparently.

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Kraichgauer
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24 Mar 2012, 1:38 pm

The idiot called his Commander-in-Chief a domestic enemy, and said he wouldn't obey orders from him. That's fomenting possible mutiny.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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24 Mar 2012, 5:49 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

The idiot called his Commander-in-Chief a domestic enemy, and said he wouldn't obey orders from him. That's fomenting possible mutiny.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

During a war, this would be a shooting offense. It is clear insubordination and very actionable under the Uniform Code. When this joker took the Oath he swore (or affirmed) that he would obey all legal orders given to him by his superiors.

ruveyn

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24 Mar 2012, 6:03 pm

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

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Kraichgauer
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24 Mar 2012, 7:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

The idiot called his Commander-in-Chief a domestic enemy, and said he wouldn't obey orders from him. That's fomenting possible mutiny.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Exactly.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Ancalagon
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25 Mar 2012, 12:18 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:

What, specifically, do you guys think he did that violated the law(incl. military law)? You mention the article says he took political action while representing himself as a service member. What action was that? I didn't read that line apparently.

From the OP:

Quote:

Camp Pendleton Marine Sgt. Gary Stein started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party to encourage fellow service members to exercise their free speech rights. He declared a few weeks ago that he would not follow the unlawful orders of the commander in chief. Stein also criticized Defense Secretary Leon Panetta for his comments on Syria.

From DoD Directive 1344.10 (link here)
Permitted:

Quote:

4.1.1.6. Write a letter to the editor of a newspaper expressing the member’s personal views on public issues or political candidates, if such action is not part of an organized letterwriting campaign or a solicitation of votes for or against a political party or partisan political cause or candidate. If the letter identifies the member as on active duty (or if the member is otherwise reasonably identifiable as a member of the Armed Forces), the letter should clearly state that the views expressed are those of the individual only and not those of the Department of Defense (or Department of Homeland Security for members of the Coast Guard).

Not Permitted:

Quote:

4.1.2.4. Serve in any official capacity with or be listed as a sponsor of a partisan
political club.

Quote:

4.1.2.6. Participate in any radio, television, or other program or group discussion as
an advocate for or against a partisan political party, candidate, or cause.
4.1.2.7. Conduct a political opinion survey under the auspices of a partisan political
club or group or distribute partisan political literature.

Also:

Quote:

4.1.5. Activities not expressly prohibited may be contrary to the spirit and intent of this
Directive. Any activity that may be reasonably viewed as directly or indirectly associating the
Department of Defense or the Department of Homeland Security (in the case of the Coast Guard)
or any component of these Departments with a partisan political activity or is otherwise contrary
to the spirit and intention of this Directive shall be avoided

If you look at this and think about the chain-of-command concerns involved, I don't see how you can say he didn't cross a line.

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ruveyn
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25 Mar 2012, 7:47 am

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

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25 Mar 2012, 12:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

No, I am in agreement that the marine was in the wrong. No words are free when you are a soldier. What I am more concerned about is whether there are many, many soldiers who would openly oppose the president, and people who would support them and claim they are justified in this action. It is laying the groundwork for a civil war

Joker
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25 Mar 2012, 1:34 pm

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

Vigilans
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25 Mar 2012, 1:35 pm

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

Joker
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25 Mar 2012, 1:39 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

Your right you sign your rights away serving in the military when my brother was a marine he did everything his commander and cheif ordered his men to do in the battlefeild you serve your country and follow the orders of the president thats why he is the commander and chief.

Vigilans
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25 Mar 2012, 1:41 pm

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

Mind you it is not like the armed forces of the Third Reich whereby a personal oath was sworn to the leader. There are also international laws regarding war crimes that make the defense "just following orders" inexcusable

Joker
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25 Mar 2012, 1:46 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

True but those international laws im pretty sure we do not follow as a country plus our men and women soliders do swear a oath to the president and to protect and serve our country guess you used the third reich anaology because im german :roll:

Vigilans
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25 Mar 2012, 1:48 pm

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

What? I used it because it is an analogy of convenience where a nation's armed forces swore a personal oath. Additionally the US was instrumental in enforcing many of these international laws

btw... I am German and have ancestors who fought for Germany in the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe

Joker
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25 Mar 2012, 1:55 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This could be a fairly ominous foreshadowing

Of what? Maintaining the chain of command? No military organization can function if subordinates do not carry out legal orders.

ruveyn

You woudlnt be a good soldier if your not willing to follow the orders of the president.

That's it, they know what they sign up for... the military is not a democracy.

Wonderbar as to I sorry I didnt realize you was using a anology im just used to people giving me a hard time for taking a lot of pride in my german heritage.

What parts of germany did your family hail from? Mine come from Homburg and Barvaria.

And yes that is true but look at the international laws that we are supposed to follow then look at how George Bush broke a hand full of those laws.

Kraichgauer
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25 Mar 2012, 4:23 pm

Another Deutscher? Cool!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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