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Calling all marxists

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ruveyn
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27 Apr 2012, 8:21 am

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I think there's a common misconception that if you work in an office, wear a suit, etc, you must earn more than a blue collar worker. I imagine most of the really high earners use their brains more than their brawn and they are more likely to be white collar folk. However, the average office worker does not earn more than a bricklayer, joiner or factory employee. Some do of course, and the top executive salaries probably take the average wage for a white collar worker up (skewing the figures). I've had discussions with manual workers in the past, who just assumed my husband and I earned more (especially as we've both been to uni), but when actual salaries were mentioned, they had assumed wrongly. Even as a woman in the 60s, my mum earned double what my dad did. She's the blue collar and he's the white collar.


Wages are determined as the price of labor, by supply and demand. Labor is a commodity.

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27 Apr 2012, 8:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Rainy wrote:

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.


Tell that to Henry Ford. Capitalists have not always been bottom feeding, greedy, short sighted scumbags.


Actually I think those are the traits capitalism was built on.


Capitalism is "built on" property and profitable activities. One makes profits by producing goods and services that other people want and are willing to pay for.

That is why capitalism is the process that ended feudalism and slavery and introduced industry. Slaves were replaced by machines. Even Marx saw capitalism as a progressive and necessary part of fully developing human potential.

ruveyn


and machines have replaced a lot of paid workers to.


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Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 8:56 am

Quote:
You need to study some history.


And you need to study some economics.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Yeah and many of them don't receive this aid, and are hardly making enough to get by....and some even have families to feed.


Then the problem is with government aid, not wage rates.

Quote:
And no I mean decent wages.....as in one has enough to provide for them self(and their family if they have a family) and I wonder how worthless people would find these jobs if everyone who did them just quit. No one to build houses, structures or buildings, no one to paint them, no one to clean, no one to stock shelves I could go on and on......but yeah I guess any work involving labor just isn't worth anything :roll:

Also as I mentioned before physical labor can take quite a toll on the body, the pay should reflect that....but no I guess it is easier to hire illegal immigrants who will work for less then actually provide living wages.


Skilled jobs get paid more, unskilled jobs get paid less. Anyone can clean and stock the shelves.

It's the same reason why food is inexpensive even though you'd die without it. If a store charges $200 for an apple, you're going to either shop somewhere else, or stop buying apples.

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and machines have replaced a lot of paid workers to.


Machines greatly increase productivity, and creates new jobs in things related to building and maintaining machines.



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27 Apr 2012, 9:00 am

Skill does not always equal academic knowledge. If a task is hard to perform by the person ordering the job, it can be considered a skill.


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AstroGeek
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27 Apr 2012, 9:09 am

Declension wrote:
AstroGeek wrote:
Um, the title of this thread was inviting Marxists and other lefties to the discussion. Why exactly are ruveyn and TM taking part? They seem to have thrown off the whole point, which I interpreted to be a philosophical debate among socialists rather than a debate over whether socialism is a good or bad ideology.


Eh. Maybe I'm just rude, but I'm pretty sure I would gatecrash the hell out a thread called "Calling All Libertarians".

I find it too frustrating to read libertarian arguments and I know that I won't convince anyone, so I don't see the point.



Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 9:09 am

If a task can be done by just about anyone with very little training, then it doesn't require a lot of skill.



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27 Apr 2012, 9:11 am

Rainy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:
Yeah and many of them don't receive this aid, and are hardly making enough to get by....and some even have families to feed.


Then the problem is with government aid, not wage rates.


Well I suppose the issue would be with the government aid, however there is that view some have that we should not have such government aid.....so I wonder what those people think should be done about the fact sometimes the wages offered are not enough to get by on.


Quote:
And no I mean decent wages.....as in one has enough to provide for them self(and their family if they have a family) and I wonder how worthless people would find these jobs if everyone who did them just quit. No one to build houses, structures or buildings, no one to paint them, no one to clean, no one to stock shelves I could go on and on......but yeah I guess any work involving labor just isn't worth anything :roll:

Also as I mentioned before physical labor can take quite a toll on the body, the pay should reflect that....but no I guess it is easier to hire illegal immigrants who will work for less then actually provide living wages.


Skilled jobs get paid more, unskilled jobs get paid less. Anyone can clean and stock the shelves.

not all labor jobs are nessisarily unskilled, I mean I agree unskilled simple jobs are going to bring in less wages but the assumption that all labor jobs are easy to do and don't really take any skill or anything is a little bit ignorant.


It's the same reason why food is inexpensive even though you'd die without it. If a store charges $200 for an apple, you're going to either shop somewhere else, or stop buying apples.

Quote:
and machines have replaced a lot of paid workers to.


Machines greatly increase productivity, and creates new jobs in things related to building and maintaining machines.
Yes there always is more than one way to see things.....it does that, but even so people have lost their job due to it being replaced by machines that is not to say its bad to progress technology but even that has its downsides.


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27 Apr 2012, 9:15 am

Rainy wrote:
If a task can be done by just about anyone with very little training, then it doesn't require a lot of skill.


Maybe this assumption explains why people in painting jobs for instance get pissed off at that 'one guy' on the job who screws up all the work and makes it look terrible and slacks around all because the employer thought 'oh anyone can easily do this job.' It's not as simple as it looks a lot of time.


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Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 9:19 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I suppose the issue would be with the government aid, however there is that view some have that we should not have such government aid.....so I wonder what those people think should be done about the fact sometimes the wages offered are not enough to get by on.



Yes, well, that's those people, and it's usually a response to people abusing the system.

Quote:
Machines greatly increase productivity, and creates new jobs in things related to building and maintaining machines.
Yes there always is more than one way to see things.....it does that, but even so people have lost their job due to it being replaced by machines that is not to say its bad to progress technology but even that has its downsides.[/quote]

Realize that without machines, the prices of a lot of goods would go up, which would make it even harder to get by.



Kjas
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27 Apr 2012, 9:22 am

AstroGeek wrote:
Um, the title of this thread was inviting Marxists and other lefties to the discussion. Why exactly are ruveyn and TM taking part? They seem to have thrown off the whole point, which I interpreted to be a philosophical debate among socialists rather than a debate over whether socialism is a good or bad ideology.


Um Guys, can we please respect the purpose of this thread as per the OP's wishes? (See above^)

If you guys want to argue about capitalism VS. communism or socialism, can you please start a separate thread for that purpose so that you don't derail this one?


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GoonSquad
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27 Apr 2012, 9:23 am

Rainy wrote:
Quote:
You need to study some history.


And you need to study some economics.



I have. Ever hear of the multiplier effect? Paying workers higher wages is simply a way to invest in, and sustain one's own market. History PROVES this ECONOMIC principle to be true.

Bleeding your workers might produce profits in the short term, but it's like killing the golden goose.

You cannot maintain a modern economy based on mass consumption if no one is willing to pay their workers enough to consume anything.


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androbot2084
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27 Apr 2012, 9:25 am

Yes that slow painter that the boss has to pay premium overtime wages so the job gets done on time.



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27 Apr 2012, 9:25 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Rainy wrote:
If a task can be done by just about anyone with very little training, then it doesn't require a lot of skill.


Maybe this assumption explains why people in painting jobs for instance get pissed off at that 'one guy' on the job who screws up all the work and makes it look terrible and slacks around all because the employer thought 'oh anyone can easily do this job.' It's not as simple as it looks a lot of time.


"Taking a lot of time" and "Being tiring" is not the same as requiring a lot of skill.



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27 Apr 2012, 9:32 am

Rainy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I suppose the issue would be with the government aid, however there is that view some have that we should not have such government aid.....so I wonder what those people think should be done about the fact sometimes the wages offered are not enough to get by on.



Yes, well, that's those people, and it's usually a response to people abusing the system.



something you might have missed in economics class....

Government aid is not free. It's actually a drag on the economy and in this case it's really a subsidy for businesses who aren't paying adequate wages. In this case, it's the capitalists who are abusing the system.


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Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 9:33 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Rainy wrote:
Quote:
You need to study some history.


And you need to study some economics.



I have. Ever hear of the multiplier effect? Paying workers higher wages is simply a way to invest in, and sustain one's own market. History PROVES this ECONOMIC principle to be true.

Bleeding your workers might produce profits in the short term, but it's like killing the golden goose.


Ford was in a situation where he could greatly increase productivity by increasing wages. And he was building cars. Most companies won't experience the massive increase in productivity to make up for the increase in wages.

Quote:

You cannot maintain a modern economy based on mass consumption if no one is willing to pay their workers enough to consume anything.


Increase in wages without enough increase in productivity will cause prices of goods to rise and/or unemployment to increase, which doesn't really solve your problem.



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27 Apr 2012, 9:36 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Rainy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I suppose the issue would be with the government aid, however there is that view some have that we should not have such government aid.....so I wonder what those people think should be done about the fact sometimes the wages offered are not enough to get by on.



Yes, well, that's those people, and it's usually a response to people abusing the system.



something you might have missed in economics class....

Government aid is not free. It's actually a drag on the economy and in this case it's really a subsidy for businesses who aren't paying adequate wages. In this case, it's the capitalists who are abusing the system.


Government aid already exists, and is not going away anytime soon.

Massive wage increases in a short period of time for unskilled jobs hasn't happened, and is not going to happen anytime soon.