The demise of Men?
YippySkippy wrote:
Clearly, men need to get off the Playstation and computer and do some housework. Unfortunately, there has been no "men's lib" movement to tell them that these activities are acceptable/necessary/honorable for them to perform.
It is called the Pussywhipped Men's Society, or PMS.
ArrantPariah wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Clearly, men need to get off the Playstation and computer and do some housework. Unfortunately, there has been no "men's lib" movement to tell them that these activities are acceptable/necessary/honorable for them to perform.
It is called the Pussywhipped Men's Society, or PMS.
because no man is honorable enough to do his share of the work unless he's harassed into it. (/sarcasm)
Thankfully, I know that's not true because I've had male housemates who have done their share of the communal work without being nagged into it, and even one who was tidier than I am (and not gay, either - not that they, or I, would have had a problem with that).
ArrantPariah wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Clearly, men need to get off the Playstation and computer and do some housework. Unfortunately, there has been no "men's lib" movement to tell them that these activities are acceptable/necessary/honorable for them to perform.
It is because of the Manchild's OMni-Maternal Yearning movement (MOMMY).
Fixed that for you.
edgewaters wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Clearly, men need to get off the Playstation and computer and do some housework. Unfortunately, there has been no "men's lib" movement to tell them that these activities are acceptable/necessary/honorable for them to perform.
It is because of the Manchild's OMni-Maternal Yearning movement (MOMMY).
Fixed that for you.
PMS and MOMMY are two opposing groups.
nominalist wrote:
charles52 wrote:
So if guys are in decline, maybe it has something to do with the ascendancy of women... not that the ascendancy of women is a bad thing, but it may be one of the factors in the decline of men.
I think that we are (fortunately) seeing the end of male-dominated civilization.
I don't.
We have had less than a century of a clearly defined "women's lib" movement and a single generation of "feminism".
In that time the birth rate in the cultures that have eagerly embraced feminism has plummeted to far below replacement levels which has led to the massive importation of nonfeminist cultures to shore up the workforce.
It appears that given the choice of being baby factories or not, women choose not to be...
DC wrote:
nominalist wrote:
charles52 wrote:
So if guys are in decline, maybe it has something to do with the ascendancy of women... not that the ascendancy of women is a bad thing, but it may be one of the factors in the decline of men.
I think that we are (fortunately) seeing the end of male-dominated civilization.
I don't.
We have had less than a century of a clearly defined "women's lib" movement and a single generation of "feminism".
In that time the birth rate in the cultures that have eagerly embraced feminism has plummeted to far below replacement levels which has led to the massive importation of nonfeminist cultures to shore up the workforce.
It appears that given the choice of being baby factories or not, women choose not to be...
That's an interesting point, in viewing the world demographics. Obviously those that continue to reproduce and survive are going to be the one's left standing. And on average it is obviously the patriarchal societies that champion that cause, regardless of living conditions.
I guess the question is where is the eventual balance of influence going to be from developing countries where egalitarianism is growing stronger or from countries where patriarchy remains strong as well as rates of reproduction.
That conflict of immigration seems to be a potential mitigating factor as to where the balance of influence per egalitarianism and patriarchy may eventually go on average in the world.
We often view our world in terms of developed countries, however it is not reflective of the reality of the world's larger populations.
At the end of the day, it is those that are left standing, that are the champions in survival.
LKL wrote:
I think that's a straw feminist. I don't know of any feminist women who never do any housework, and I know a lot who love to spend time with the kids. What the feminists I speak to - and I speak to, and listen to, a lot of them - want, is to SHARE the work. Most couples these days are dual-income, and it's not fair for the husband and wife to both come home, and have one of them always having to do a second shift of work while the other always collapses on the couch with a beer and turns on the sports.
If that was a "straw feminist" then this a strawman. I don't know a single man, not one, who doesn't do any of the housework. Yes, in our culture, women still do the majority of the housework. But men also still do the majority of work outside the home. Even in relationships where both partners work outside the home, on average the men work longer hours and have jobs that are more physically demanding. It's oversimplifying matters to say "women work too now, so men need to do half of what women used to."
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
I think that's a straw feminist. I don't know of any feminist women who never do any housework, and I know a lot who love to spend time with the kids. What the feminists I speak to - and I speak to, and listen to, a lot of them - want, is to SHARE the work. Most couples these days are dual-income, and it's not fair for the husband and wife to both come home, and have one of them always having to do a second shift of work while the other always collapses on the couch with a beer and turns on the sports.
If that was a "straw feminist" then this a strawman. I don't know a single man, not one, who doesn't do any of the housework. Yes, in our culture, women still do the majority of the housework. But men also still do the majority of work outside the home. Even in relationships where both partners work outside the home, on average the men work longer hours and have jobs that are more physically demanding. It's oversimplifying matters to say "women work too now, so men need to do half of what women used to."
If both partners work 40 hours outside of the home, both partners should do half of the housework - and that includes things like re-hanging doors, cooking on the barbecue, etc. that usually falls to men. If the woman is only working half-time, then yes: it makes sense that she will do most of the housework.
Housework isn't bad or belittling, but it is work and it should be split evenly so that one partner isn't the slave of the other.
Sometimes we get old (or even middle-aged) men brought in by ambulance who have completely gone to seed - haven't been eating, barely drinking, haven't been showering or cleaning the house at all - becuase their wife has either died or left them. They feel totally sorry for themselves, as if they're entitled to have a woman wiping their butt for them. Likewise, I have heard of little old women (including my grandmother) who, once their husband was either demented or dead and couldn't handle the money anymore, get taken in by transparent scam artists because they have no idea of how to handle money; before social security, it wasn't unusual for them to be completely financially destitute when they became a widdow. It's ok for one partner or the other to the lion's share of any one task, but work overall should be balanced and neither partner should be completely helpless in any one aspect of life.
aghogday wrote:
DC wrote:
nominalist wrote:
charles52 wrote:
So if guys are in decline, maybe it has something to do with the ascendancy of women... not that the ascendancy of women is a bad thing, but it may be one of the factors in the decline of men.
I think that we are (fortunately) seeing the end of male-dominated civilization.
I don't.
We have had less than a century of a clearly defined "women's lib" movement and a single generation of "feminism".
In that time the birth rate in the cultures that have eagerly embraced feminism has plummeted to far below replacement levels which has led to the massive importation of nonfeminist cultures to shore up the workforce.
It appears that given the choice of being baby factories or not, women choose not to be...
That's an interesting point, in viewing the world demographics. Obviously those that continue to reproduce and survive are going to be the one's left standing. And on average it is obviously the patriarchal societies that champion that cause, regardless of living conditions.
I guess the question is where is the eventual balance of influence going to be from developing countries where egalitarianism is growing stronger or from countries where patriarchy remains strong as well as rates of reproduction.
That conflict of immigration seems to be a potential mitigating factor as to where the balance of influence per egalitarianism and patriarchy may eventually go on average in the world.
We often view our world in terms of developed countries, however it is not reflective of the reality of the world's larger populations.
At the end of the day, it is those that are left standing, that are the champions in survival.
the countries with the lowest birthrates (think Japan) also tend to have a combination of crowding, entrenched patriarchal culture, and true female access to birth control and education.
LKL wrote:
aghogday wrote:
DC wrote:
nominalist wrote:
charles52 wrote:
So if guys are in decline, maybe it has something to do with the ascendancy of women... not that the ascendancy of women is a bad thing, but it may be one of the factors in the decline of men.
I think that we are (fortunately) seeing the end of male-dominated civilization.
I don't.
We have had less than a century of a clearly defined "women's lib" movement and a single generation of "feminism".
In that time the birth rate in the cultures that have eagerly embraced feminism has plummeted to far below replacement levels which has led to the massive importation of nonfeminist cultures to shore up the workforce.
It appears that given the choice of being baby factories or not, women choose not to be...
That's an interesting point, in viewing the world demographics. Obviously those that continue to reproduce and survive are going to be the one's left standing. And on average it is obviously the patriarchal societies that champion that cause, regardless of living conditions.
I guess the question is where is the eventual balance of influence going to be from developing countries where egalitarianism is growing stronger or from countries where patriarchy remains strong as well as rates of reproduction.
That conflict of immigration seems to be a potential mitigating factor as to where the balance of influence per egalitarianism and patriarchy may eventually go on average in the world.
We often view our world in terms of developed countries, however it is not reflective of the reality of the world's larger populations.
At the end of the day, it is those that are left standing, that are the champions in survival.
the countries with the lowest birthrates (think Japan) also tend to have a combination of crowding, entrenched patriarchal culture, and true female access to birth control and education.
That's an exception, but it is not reflective of what is evidenced on average per this issue with a glance of all the countries of the world. One has to go to 126 on the list of countries with the highest birthrates to find a European country with anything close to an egalitarian way of life. And in Ireland, religion obviously plays a role.
Issues addressed in japan in the linked article are that people in urban areas cannot afford to have children in a country that offers little support to those that make a decision to have children, and women are making the decision not to have children. They have enough rights to keep the economy strong, but not enough of a social safety net to have children.
The issue in developed countries is there is already a standard of living, that some people are evidenced to refuse to give up, over the potential of not having children. That won't likely work in the long run in countries like Japan, that do not have the boarders to expand, the potential for a significant social safety net, or the same potential for immigration, land locked by water. Sooner or later it will likely become a social crisis, as it is already approaching one. The one solution that may work there is a financial incentive to have children, if the government can afford it, before it is too late.
http://timeinmoments.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/why-is-the-birth-rate-in-japan-declining/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate
^I don't think that egalitarianism is the only, or even the most, important factor in whether women choose to have children; looking back, I worded that poorly. I should have said something like, 'where women are supposed to do all of the work raising the children by themselves, with no help whatsoever by society or by their husbands/family/friends, they will choose to have fewer or no children if they have access to birth control and the education to use it.'
LKL wrote:
^I don't think that egalitarianism is the only, or even the most, important factor in whether women choose to have children; looking back, I worded that poorly. I should have said something like, 'where women are supposed to do all of the work raising the children by themselves, with no help whatsoever by society or by their husbands/family/friends, they will choose to have fewer or no children if they have access to birth control and the education to use it.'
I'm sure that is a significant influencing factor, in two income families wherever they exist, and where access to birth control is almost universally provided, but where there are two income families that phenomenon in itself at least provides evidence that women have gained rights for the freedom of choice to work and to not have children, per a partial move toward egalitarianism.
Coming back full circle to the topic article, I'm glad you brought up the Japanese, because that culture and way of life, seem to be the best example of what the topic author is trying to explain per virtual reality and priorities in life.
The Japanese culture lends some credence to the topic of the demise of guys as many young guys in Japan have lost interest in having sex with a human being and some focus instead on virtual girlfriends.
But, it gets more interesting, as the line between gender roles in that country are becoming more difficult to define, per an extreme version of metro-sexual in the US, referred to as "herbivore men in Japan".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/27/japan-men-sexless-love
Japan has been measured as the most sexless country in the world, right behind Singapore.
Quote:
In the most recent government study, published at the end of last month, the percentage of unmarried men spiked 9.2 points from five years ago. More telling: 61% of those unwed men reported not having a girlfriend, and 45% said they couldn't care less about finding one.
Quote:
I tried to explain the phenomenon via a TV interview for a US cable station: the men who spent their yen on a weekend of romance with a digital lover were a subset of a subculture many times removed from mainstream Japan. They are known as otaku, or hyper-obsessive and often asocial men who seek solace in imaginary worlds (not unlike many artists and writers, I should add). Nevertheless, these were clearly young Japanese man of a generation that found the imperfect or just unexpected demands of real-world relationships with women less enticing than the lure of the virtual libido. You can't have sex with a digital graphic, but you can get sexually excited, and maybe satisfied, by one.
The phrase "herbivore men" was coined by a female Japanese journalist in 2006. By 2009, the Japanese male's lack of ambition, sexually or otherwise, had become a media meme. With the latest reports in Japan, of men who can't get it up for real women who won't get married or have kids, the mutual gender-chill phenomenon has become mainstream. It may be the future, but is it really Japanese?
"Maybe we're just advanced human beings," says a Japanese friend of mine over dinner this week in Tokyo, who won't let me use her real name. She is an attractive, 40-something editor at one of Japan's premier fashion magazines, and she is still single. "Maybe," she adds, "we've learned how to service ourselves."
The phrase "herbivore men" was coined by a female Japanese journalist in 2006. By 2009, the Japanese male's lack of ambition, sexually or otherwise, had become a media meme. With the latest reports in Japan, of men who can't get it up for real women who won't get married or have kids, the mutual gender-chill phenomenon has become mainstream. It may be the future, but is it really Japanese?
"Maybe we're just advanced human beings," says a Japanese friend of mine over dinner this week in Tokyo, who won't let me use her real name. She is an attractive, 40-something editor at one of Japan's premier fashion magazines, and she is still single. "Maybe," she adds, "we've learned how to service ourselves."
These comments associated with Japan seem to reflect much of what was said in the 1500 comments generated by the topic article.
There is another link in that article that focuses deeper into issues with virtual reality and relationships, reflecting what the topic article author evidences, in Japan several years ago,in 2009.
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/86/private-worlds.html
Quote:
Granted, it’s often hard to make things happen in real life. Committing to a relationship or the achievement of an ambition is usually a lot more challenging than creating a sudden buzz on the internet, posting a blog entry, tweeting 140 characters or adding new friends to your Facebook, Mixi or digital address pages. But a retreat from reality poses its own set of risks: newly emerging anxieties and uncertainties that we are only now beginning to recognize and understand. Tetsuya Akikawa, a musician who unwittingly became a counselor to Japan’s suicidal youth when he hosted a radio call-in program, distills his listeners’ most common complaint: “A lot of teenagers said to me that they couldn’t feel the real feelings of living,” he says, shaking his head in disbelief. “They live a shadow of a life, rather than life itself.”
Divorced from the very human responsibility to contact and interact directly with other living beings, we may feel hollowed out, emptied of the sense of an evolving self that can make existence worth its painful bouts of adversity and growth. A life spent lurking too long in the shadows of the virtual world might turn out to be no life at all.
Divorced from the very human responsibility to contact and interact directly with other living beings, we may feel hollowed out, emptied of the sense of an evolving self that can make existence worth its painful bouts of adversity and growth. A life spent lurking too long in the shadows of the virtual world might turn out to be no life at all.
There is no doubt that broadband access to the internet is changing the way the world interacts with others, and this phenomenon is really only about a decade old, per widely available access by the masses in technologically advanced countries. It provides an option that wasn't available before, with alternate avenues for many different activities, beyond the organic world.
But, speaking of options, the article linked below is also interesting, as the pet industry in Japan is booming, as an alternate means of human connection, as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jun/08/why-japan-prefers-pets-to-parenthood
aghogday wrote:
It is easier to maintain a pet(s) than children. If you screw up raising a pet, it isn't the end of the world. You can also lock your pets in cages and leave the house and not have to worry about being arrested.
Pets are much more convenient than children.
aghogday wrote:
LKL wrote:
^I don't think that egalitarianism is the only, or even the most, important factor in whether women choose to have children; looking back, I worded that poorly. I should have said something like, 'where women are supposed to do all of the work raising the children by themselves, with no help whatsoever by society or by their husbands/family/friends, they will choose to have fewer or no children if they have access to birth control and the education to use it.'
I'm sure that is a significant influencing factor, in two income families wherever they exist, and where access to birth control is almost universally provided, but where there are two income families that phenomenon in itself at least provides evidence that women have gained rights for the freedom of choice to work and to not have children, per a partial move toward egalitarianism.
Coming back full circle to the topic article, I'm glad you brought up the Japanese, because that culture and way of life, seem to be the best example of what the topic author is trying to explain per virtual reality and priorities in life.
The Japanese culture lends some credence to the topic of the demise of guys as many young guys in Japan have lost interest in having sex with a human being and some focus instead on virtual girlfriends.
But, it gets more interesting, as the line between gender roles in that country are becoming more difficult to define, per an extreme version of metro-sexual in the US, referred to as "herbivore men in Japan".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/27/japan-men-sexless-love
Japan has been measured as the most sexless country in the world, right behind Singapore.
Quote:
In the most recent government study, published at the end of last month, the percentage of unmarried men spiked 9.2 points from five years ago. More telling: 61% of those unwed men reported not having a girlfriend, and 45% said they couldn't care less about finding one.
Quote:
I tried to explain the phenomenon via a TV interview for a US cable station: the men who spent their yen on a weekend of romance with a digital lover were a subset of a subculture many times removed from mainstream Japan. They are known as otaku, or hyper-obsessive and often asocial men who seek solace in imaginary worlds (not unlike many artists and writers, I should add). Nevertheless, these were clearly young Japanese man of a generation that found the imperfect or just unexpected demands of real-world relationships with women less enticing than the lure of the virtual libido. You can't have sex with a digital graphic, but you can get sexually excited, and maybe satisfied, by one.
The phrase "herbivore men" was coined by a female Japanese journalist in 2006. By 2009, the Japanese male's lack of ambition, sexually or otherwise, had become a media meme. With the latest reports in Japan, of men who can't get it up for real women who won't get married or have kids, the mutual gender-chill phenomenon has become mainstream. It may be the future, but is it really Japanese?
"Maybe we're just advanced human beings," says a Japanese friend of mine over dinner this week in Tokyo, who won't let me use her real name. She is an attractive, 40-something editor at one of Japan's premier fashion magazines, and she is still single. "Maybe," she adds, "we've learned how to service ourselves."
The phrase "herbivore men" was coined by a female Japanese journalist in 2006. By 2009, the Japanese male's lack of ambition, sexually or otherwise, had become a media meme. With the latest reports in Japan, of men who can't get it up for real women who won't get married or have kids, the mutual gender-chill phenomenon has become mainstream. It may be the future, but is it really Japanese?
"Maybe we're just advanced human beings," says a Japanese friend of mine over dinner this week in Tokyo, who won't let me use her real name. She is an attractive, 40-something editor at one of Japan's premier fashion magazines, and she is still single. "Maybe," she adds, "we've learned how to service ourselves."
These comments associated with Japan seem to reflect much of what was said in the 1500 comments generated by the topic article.
There is another link in that article that focuses deeper into issues with virtual reality and relationships, reflecting what the topic article author evidences, in Japan several years ago,in 2009.
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/86/private-worlds.html
Quote:
Granted, it’s often hard to make things happen in real life. Committing to a relationship or the achievement of an ambition is usually a lot more challenging than creating a sudden buzz on the internet, posting a blog entry, tweeting 140 characters or adding new friends to your Facebook, Mixi or digital address pages. But a retreat from reality poses its own set of risks: newly emerging anxieties and uncertainties that we are only now beginning to recognize and understand. Tetsuya Akikawa, a musician who unwittingly became a counselor to Japan’s suicidal youth when he hosted a radio call-in program, distills his listeners’ most common complaint: “A lot of teenagers said to me that they couldn’t feel the real feelings of living,” he says, shaking his head in disbelief. “They live a shadow of a life, rather than life itself.”
Divorced from the very human responsibility to contact and interact directly with other living beings, we may feel hollowed out, emptied of the sense of an evolving self that can make existence worth its painful bouts of adversity and growth. A life spent lurking too long in the shadows of the virtual world might turn out to be no life at all.
Divorced from the very human responsibility to contact and interact directly with other living beings, we may feel hollowed out, emptied of the sense of an evolving self that can make existence worth its painful bouts of adversity and growth. A life spent lurking too long in the shadows of the virtual world might turn out to be no life at all.
There is no doubt that broadband access to the internet is changing the way the world interacts with others, and this phenomenon is really only about a decade old, per widely available access by the masses in technologically advanced countries. It provides an option that wasn't available before, with alternate avenues for many different activities, beyond the organic world.
But, speaking of options, the article linked below is also interesting, as the pet industry in Japan is booming, as an alternate means of human connection, as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jun/08/why-japan-prefers-pets-to-parenthood
fascinating set of articles. thanks for the links.