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Was Joesph Stalin a Fascist? discussion and poll

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Is Joseph Stalin a fascist?
Not on your life 32%  32%  [ 7 ]
mmmmm... could be. 68%  68%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 22

edgewaters
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04 Aug 2012, 2:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
You are overlooking that collectivism is the common characteristic of both Il Duce fascism and Stalinist (so-called) communism. The individual has no standing in either order. That State is the supreme element of society, so both are Statist.

ruveyn


Anything organized along the lines of the national state is statist.

Fascism was only collectivist in a political sense, it did not feature a command economy. When the fascists came to power, they undertook several economic initiatives, these included:

-repealing the tax on capital invested in banking and industry sectors

-taxes on company managers cut in half

-All foreign capital relieved of all taxes

-luxury tax repealed

-the oversight body known as the Commission on War Profits abolished

-inheiritance tax reduced

-privatization of state monopolies (eg telephone system, match production, life insurance, etc)

-non-fascist trade unions outlawed, strikes made illegal

Essentially they went in for privatization and tax cuts, mainly. Though they were not laissez faire since the government acted to intervene on behalf of powerful corporations, attempting to secure resources and markets for their benefit through colonization (as in Africa) or political deals with foreign powers. Until the mid-1930s anyway, when Mussolini starts to fall in lockstep with Nazi economic ideals (autarky, etc)



thomas81
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04 Aug 2012, 3:07 pm

Another important thing, the codependency of state and business under fascism cannot be under emphasised.

During industrial disputes, the big capitalists would have access to the army to break up strikes. Essentially the state was a tool of business to suppress dissent in as much as the private sector was a tool of the state to militarise and build up its army.

Hitler, while on one hand advocating fairness and glory for the working man on the other hand was an admirer of the bourgeoisie or capitalist class. He saw them as paragons of strength, creativity and aryan leadership. He could often be found sucking up their votes during visits to mansion homes prior to the 1928 election.



JakobVirgil
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04 Aug 2012, 3:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will accept that if fascism is an ordering with Obama<Bush<Salazar<Franco< Mussolini<Hitler
From least to most fascist.


Again, this 'heirarchy' of facism isn't strictly correct.

While its true to say that Hitler was a fascist, equally its untrue to say that he was or wasn't any less Fascist than Mussolini. Mussolini, didn't carry Hitler's racist baggage (he actually granted citizenship to Ethiopian immigrants provided they 'embraced' Italian culture). However Hitler employed much left-sounding demagogy to appeal to the working class to gain a mass movement. Mussolini was more concerned with support from the large capitalists.

From these conflicting policies, its difficult to tell which one is more left or right wing. They both had extremely reactionary views and while Mussoloni was not responsible for the holocaust, its difficult to say which was farthest to the right wing. Hitler was a National Socialist which is more of a sub ideology or offshoot of classic fascism.


I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D


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04 Aug 2012, 3:39 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.



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04 Aug 2012, 3:46 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


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thomas81
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04 Aug 2012, 3:49 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.



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04 Aug 2012, 5:07 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.


digression is the soul of conversation.

So were do you plug in Uncle Joe in this relation of Fascism?


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thomas81
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04 Aug 2012, 5:10 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.


digression is the soul of conversation.

So were do you plug in Uncle Joe in this relation of Fascism?


I don't 'plug him in' at all, because I believe the thread is based on a misnomer.

In my view Stalin was, as I've already said, an authoritarian socialist. Not a fascist.



JakobVirgil
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04 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.


digression is the soul of conversation.

So were do you plug in Uncle Joe in this relation of Fascism?


I don't 'plug him in' at all, because I believe the thread is based on a misnomer.

In my view Stalin was, as I've already said, an authoritarian socialist. Not a fascist.


Even during the great patriotic war when he embraced Nationalist rhetoric?
or during the Jewish purges after the Doctors plot?

Could he have been a situational Fascist?


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Their hungry thirsty roots??

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thomas81
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04 Aug 2012, 5:18 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.


digression is the soul of conversation.

So were do you plug in Uncle Joe in this relation of Fascism?


I don't 'plug him in' at all, because I believe the thread is based on a misnomer.

In my view Stalin was, as I've already said, an authoritarian socialist. Not a fascist.


Even during the great patriotic war when he embraced Nationalist rhetoric?
or during the Jewish purges after the Doctors plot?

Could he have been a situational Fascist?


Leftist socialism or even Marxism, does not exclude nationalism.

Here in Ireland, the Irish Republican Socialist Party is a nationalist, marxist organisation. There are other examples.

So no I don't believe that nationalism alone makes a fascist. Fascism is when you have support for nationalism and the private sector at the same time. Often with anti-communist rhetoric thrown in.

Stalin was a lot of things. He was a mass murderer, he was a totalitarian despot and possibly even an anti-semite. A fascist wasn't one of them.



JakobVirgil
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04 Aug 2012, 5:35 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

I will allow a swap of Dophy and Ducie but on the rest I am firm. :D

I'm not convinced a swap is strictly applicable either; they could be equal.


cool, but then it will have to be called a relation and it will harder to express in text.


I think we're getting off topic somewhat.


digression is the soul of conversation.

So were do you plug in Uncle Joe in this relation of Fascism?


I don't 'plug him in' at all, because I believe the thread is based on a misnomer.

In my view Stalin was, as I've already said, an authoritarian socialist. Not a fascist.


Even during the great patriotic war when he embraced Nationalist rhetoric?
or during the Jewish purges after the Doctors plot?

Could he have been a situational Fascist?


Leftist socialism or even Marxism, does not exclude nationalism.

Here in Ireland, the Irish Republican Socialist Party is a nationalist, marxist organisation. There are other examples.

So no I don't believe that nationalism alone makes a fascist. Fascism is when you have support for nationalism and the private sector at the same time. Often with anti-communist rhetoric thrown in.

Stalin was a lot of things. He was a mass murderer, he was a totalitarian despot and possibly even an anti-semite. A fascist wasn't one of them.


Would an internationalist pacifist progressive who thought corporatism was the best way to heal the racial divides and lift up the poor be a Fascist?


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thomas81
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04 Aug 2012, 5:55 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Would an internationalist pacifist progressive who thought corporatism was the best way to heal the racial divides and lift up the poor be a Fascist?


It depends on the political and social makeup of the region and of the time period. It also depends on how you understand the term 'progressive'. Its generally accepted that the words fascism and progressive are antonomous to each other.

In the context of the contemporary western society, A progressive is generally one who opposes the status quo in favour of a different sort of society with greater distribution of wealth and protection of social justice. Someone who opposes such a change (as a corporatist would) cannot be meaningfully labelled as a progressive.

Moreover corporatists, to some degree will not vocally oppose institutionalised racism per sae, because it is an effective means of workforce division and control. They will use any means to divert attention away from class-conciousness.



Kurgan
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04 Aug 2012, 6:28 pm

He was not.

Allthough both communism are highly collectivistic ideologies, traditional fascism belongs to the radical center.



JakobVirgil
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04 Aug 2012, 7:34 pm

thomas81 wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:

Would an internationalist pacifist progressive who thought corporatism was the best way to heal the racial divides and lift up the poor be a Fascist?


It depends on the political and social makeup of the region and of the time period. It also depends on how you understand the term 'progressive'. Its generally accepted that the words fascism and progressive are antonomous to each other.

In the context of the contemporary western society, A progressive is generally one who opposes the status quo in favour of a different sort of society with greater distribution of wealth and protection of social justice. Someone who opposes such a change (as a corporatist would) cannot be meaningfully labelled as a progressive.

Moreover corporatists, to some degree will not vocally oppose institutionalised racism per sae, because it is an effective means of workforce division and control. They will use any means to divert attention away from class-conciousness.


But like Joe or anyone else this Corporatist would be internally inconsistent.
Loves the poor, loves the Jews, loves folks from other countries but just thinks corporatism is the way to go.
what about Ferdinand Tönnies? Émile Durkheim? are they fascists?

also what is the real difference between Corporatism and Syndicalism , a lefty thought of it?

I think the hallmarks of fascism anti-liberalism, militarism, conspiracy theory and nationalism.
It is such a hodgepodge of conflicts and contradictions it is not really a thinking mans view, fascism.
I don't think it is fair to think that corporatism is even the core principle.

the BNP are distributionists are they not fascists?


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edgewaters
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04 Aug 2012, 11:54 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
also what is the real difference between Corporatism and Syndicalism , a lefty thought of it?


Well ... Italian Fascism (Corporatism) did evolve directly out of syndicalism. The lines between them are not distinct or clear, and Fascism never did really abandon the idea of syndicalism. It was, ironically, the Syndical Laws of '26 that outlawed non-fascist trade unions and strikes, and replaced them with a fascist syndicate/union for each industry - subordinate, naturally, to the whims of the economic and political elites of fascist Italy.

Once again, thankyou Georges Sorel, you fraudulent dilettante!



JakobVirgil
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05 Aug 2012, 2:01 pm

edgewaters wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
also what is the real difference between Corporatism and Syndicalism , a lefty thought of it?


Well ... Italian Fascism (Corporatism) did evolve directly out of syndicalism. The lines between them are not distinct or clear, and Fascism never did really abandon the idea of syndicalism. It was, ironically, the Syndical Laws of '26 that outlawed non-fascist trade unions and strikes, and replaced them with a fascist syndicate/union for each industry - subordinate, naturally, to the whims of the economic and political elites of fascist Italy.

Once again, thankyou Georges Sorel, you fraudulent dilettante!


Hey I am a fraudulent dilettante. I don't care to be grouped with Mr. Sorel.
thank you very much.


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Their hungry thirsty roots??

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