Is this the forum are there any Christians

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We are one in Christ Jesus Sir. The ones who are scared of the Book of Revelation are sent off to be Methodists or Presbyterians for additional training in being luke warm get spit out of the Mouth types..lol. Will say you would be safe from hearing much about interesting end time events with the Lutherans. Now than can give a person a bad liver from too much beer. Swear them folks can out beer drink Catholics any old day. They also make better bbq.

We're the Sermon on the Mount kind.

I'm glad you brought that up.


Adam and Original Sin:
There is perhaps one case in the torah where the crimes of your parents or your children are yours to bear, and that is with regards to a priest who has a daughter who works as a prostitute, and she is to be put to death. That is the only one where your relation to someone else will give you the death penalty.

Adam, however, does not count. Adam sinned, that's his sin for him to bear, why should I carry his sin in 2012. Original sin is a christian doctrine. Jews don't believe in it. They don't have any reason to believe in it. You are not responsible for the sins of your child (past 12), or for the sins of your fathers, and forefathers. It is mindblowing that people believed this 3000 years ago, and primitive blood guilt is still practiced in 2012 in much of the world, and if I kill your sister, you kill mine.


Ritual:
Our Festivals exist to preserve memory. Memory is what has kept us going as a people, it is what will preserve us for the next 1000 years. That is why we eat unleavened bread. Because for 7 days we must suffer as the Jews did in the Land of Egypt, who gave us bread. Rituals are symbolic of values and memory of our shared experience. When the ritual looses its meaning, the symbol is no longer symbolic, and we break with the past that has elevated... the elevation being that:

1.) nothing is new under the sun
2.) the world did not start when we were born
3.) we're not the first to address any of these issues, and just maybe...
4.) there is some wisdom to learn from those who have come before us.

Evangelizing:
I fully respect your attempt to convert Jews, I think that you should think that the Jews should remain Jews. If you've appreciated all that we've given to the world, a lot of that would be lost if we broke with our past. I might even add that us remaining Jews may even make you all better Christians. Because then you can read the old testament as it was meant to be understood, and as Jesus understood it. Jesus was a faithful Jew, he practiced Kashrut, he knew his text well. Christians have a primitive understanding of the text, not as bad as atheists but not great either, and there is much to learn.

That said... I welcome attempts to convert Jews, everyone is prosletyzing anyways, including atheists, so I don't mind, but I think it is in your best interest for the people of the book to remain solidly so. We still have a task on earth to do, and you Christians are not doing a swell job of it, so working together may be better then adopting one way of looking at the world.

I don't. Promoting conversion and evangelizing is mind-f*cking.

People believe what they wish to believe. If one wishes to influence another let him doing by setting a good example.

Being a Light Unto the Nations does not mean shining a 500 watt zenon light into someone's eyes.

ruveyn

Great thoughts on this topic. Could quote several passages in the Torah of family members who suffered death because of the sins of their parents and leaders. How about all the first born males in Egypt prior to the Exodous? Would you not say they died because of the actions of Pharaoh? Even if we could manage to dodge the penalties accrued to Adam we start to sin ourselves as soon as we can..so all the bases are covered. We are sinners saved by Grace. The New Covenant is very clear. As sin entered the world by one man Adam..so the remedy for that sin is provided in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jeshua the Messiah. If the procedure is ineffectual a lot of innocent animals in the Jewish sacrificial system died for nothing. Jesus is the innocent Passover Lamb. Wake up..lol.

http://www.discoveringthejewishjesus.com/[/quote]


I'm glad you brought that up.


Adam and Original Sin:
There is perhaps one case in the torah where the crimes of your parents or your children are yours to bear, and that is with regards to a priest who has a daughter who works as a prostitute, and she is to be put to death. That is the only one where your relation to someone else will give you the death penalty.

Adam, however, does not count. Adam sinned, that's his sin for him to bear, why should I carry his sin in 2012. Original sin is a christian doctrine. Jews don't believe in it. They don't have any reason to believe in it. You are not responsible for the sins of your child (past 12), or for the sins of your fathers, and forefathers. It is mindblowing that people believed this 3000 years ago, and primitive blood guilt is still practiced in 2012 in much of the world, and if I kill your sister, you kill mine.


Ritual:
Our Festivals exist to preserve memory. Memory is what has kept us going as a people, it is what will preserve us for the next 1000 years. That is why we eat unleavened bread. Because for 7 days we must suffer as the Jews did in the Land of Egypt, who gave us bread. Rituals are symbolic of values and memory of our shared experience. When the ritual looses its meaning, the symbol is no longer symbolic, and we break with the past that has elevated... the elevation being that:

1.) nothing is new under the sun
2.) the world did not start when we were born
3.) we're not the first to address any of these issues, and just maybe...
4.) there is some wisdom to learn from those who have come before us.

Evangelizing:
I fully respect your attempt to convert Jews, I think that you should think that the Jews should remain Jews. If you've appreciated all that we've given to the world, a lot of that would be lost if we broke with our past. I might even add that us remaining Jews may even make you all better Christians. Because then you can read the old testament as it was meant to be understood, and as Jesus understood it. Jesus was a faithful Jew, he practiced Kashrut, he knew his text well. Christians have a primitive understanding of the text, not as bad as atheists but not great either, and there is much to learn.

That said... I welcome attempts to convert Jews, everyone is prosletyzing anyways, including atheists, so I don't mind, but I think it is in your best interest for the people of the book to remain solidly so. We still have a task on earth to do, and you Christians are not doing a swell job of it, so working together may be better then adopting one way of looking at the world.[/quote]

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That is bad manners and insufferable gall. Instead of proselityzing, why don't you goyim show us the beauty and wonder of living up to your own doctrines and show the world the wonders of acts of loving kindness and justice mitigated by compassion. Your good examples would go much further than all the superstition and bible pounding the the Christians. Christians, by and large, do not behave very well. Why should we take them seriously?

ruveyn

Well in it's simpliest form the explanation would be..because your eternal destiny is not dependent on what other people do or don't do. It's a One on one deal between God and you. Christian Church's are full of hypocrites..but there is always room for one more..come on down..lol.

RAMEN, BROTHER!

Do you mind explaining that idea more in depth?

I agree that kindness and a being great example is the best converter.

But even if Christians don't evangelize their faith, Islam is, and more sneakingly is the Secular faith. The secular arguments are so easily adopted and rituals of baptisms are never questioned because if it is a societal norm, it is as normal as breathing. 50% of Jews are secular, the greater enemy is not Christianity. Even Leftism has robbed Jews of Judaism more then anything else. Not much is more corrupting of our notion of Justice then Leftism.

Christians should be allowed to evangelize, and us Jews should know the arguments, and even more important, be comfortable in our skins to live in a christian or secular society without feeling we have to compromise on our beliefs. We should be evangelizing ourselves. Not for people to join Judaism, but to adopt our ethics, which is all that God cares about.

The Tikun Olam would be accomplished if the bulk of mankind practiced the seven laws given to Noah.

As a matter of fact, if I were a new-comer to the planet earth and I had to adapt a covenant to get along, my first choice would be the Noah laws, not the 613 mitzvot. Judaism is too complicated for most people. It is even too complicated for most Jews.

ruveyn

Adam's Sin Is Mine As Well?
Egypt is interesting. It is 2 things. First, it is collective guilt that kills those first borns. Second, every plaque against the Egyptians is against an Egyptian God, and I believe the killing of the first born, from Pharroh's on down, is to destroy the notion that Man could ever be God, but let me revisit my commentary on the plaques and return to you on that. The message as I understood it growing up: "Seek refuge in your natural Gods and ethics, I the creator of the universe hold the final judgement, and your behavior will bring you to your knees."


Eve, then Adam, Our Liberators:
I'll explain Adam's sin in full if I have time tonight after work, but I'll give you a little something to go by for now. The Jews never understood Adam as having sinned, and having that sin get passed on from one generation to another. We viewed Adam and Eve as liberators of the Human Race. We view their choice to choose awareness and knowledge of their existence, instead of just settling for reality as being the most intelligent animal in the animal kingdom, was ultimately the noble choice that all of us would make if God asked us the choice between a utopia(Eden), but removed us of our awareness. We would rather have a mind, and know suffering, and be allowed to ponder the great questions of life, and the human existence, then be a very smart animal that was always well fed and happy.


Immortality:
We view that when given the chance to be immortals by God, we opted for a finite existence because it inherently gives this existence meaning. You can't always do what you want in this limited time, so the time you have with the people you share it with is meaningful... they won't always be around and one day, neither will you.

Last edited by MarketAndChurch on 11 Nov 2012, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay..glad to have some discussion going. I just love stuff like this. Also great to get some Jewish Perspective on the issues at hand. I love BB..lol. Hoping they can handle our common enemies without our help..because Obamie and his crew not going to help them I dont think. Guess we can stand back and watch God do it. All those mini neutron bombs should be a great asset too. Israel has them the size of softballs which can kill every living thing in a one block radius and hurt not any physical structures then have troops in there within half an hour. That short half life comes in real handy on some occasions.

Those are the laws that God will judge every non-jew by.

But our mission is still to be a priestly class amongst the nations, the intent being that those 7 laws given to Noah is just the beginning, of what will be a full-fledge ethics evangelizing on our part to the nations.

The original purpose of the biblical requirements for the Jews was to condition them into being God's vehicle on earth for the spread of ethics. The same practices that were meant to condition them has also made them a group who only keep to themselves... obviously not what God wanted. It was the Christians and later Islam who would take the old testament to the world, unfortunately.

I don't know how many "Do this, and it is as if you have kept all of my laws" there are in the book, but if people could just destroy false Gods or making a God out of so many things in their life, that would be a good start.

Jews have enough trouble as it is. We should not "evangelize". Our best bet is to lead productive ethical lives. If people want to follow our example, that is fine. If not, that is their problem.

ruveyn

History has provided ample evidence that proselytizing (be it "Evangelism" or "Dawah") is a peaceful activity... until someone says "no".

One word: Luther.