Question for Zionists

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Oh, it's only proof that they don't believe in the things they say. "pas d'ennemis à gauche" so long as you are battling the Right.

The Weak, the Oppressed, the Have Not's, the Poor are given the benefit of the doubt. Economics, not values, are the determinant of a nations expressed morality. A poor man doesn't murder because he has bad values... he murders because capitalism is not just, the markets do not address his lack of health care or his poverty, and so his evil is contingent on his class standing, and the failures of the market to address his needs.

Economics, before Marx, and certainly confirmed by Marx, determines morality to the Left. We are the way we are because of our class standing, and the wealthy whose system keeps us the way that we are.

Clearly Hamas shouldn't have been launching rockets, and Israel can't ignore that kind of agression. But there are always collateral casualties when Israel retaliates, and most right wingers assume guilt by association and write them off as terrorists. I'm aware that Israel is lightyears ahead of any other state on that peninsula, and I think they can better maximize their potential by being somewhere where they don't have to retaliate against attacks and stir up more resentment. Or they could round up the military aged males in the territories and have them executed or castrated(not advising it, just saying what it would take), otherwise they can look forward to defending against attacks and retalliating indefinitely, I don't think the middle east is going to run out of jihadists any time soon.

I'm so sick of the polarization on this issue. I remember being called an evil Zionist at uni for drinking a Diet Coke. I much prefer the company of Zionists if that's how the pro-Palestinian people are going to be. I remember someone arguing once that just because most of the people on the Palestinian side of the argument are bad at making their case, doesn't mean they are wrong, but it's the tactics they use. Every time one of them says 'the situation there is ironically like Nazi Germany', or compares Israel to the Nazis, my sympathy dies a little bit. There is so much antisemitism not just among the Muslim supporters of Palestine. Almost all of them at some point bring up how much power Jewish people have in the world as if that was a bad thing. To me that speaks of an unacknowledged antisemitism. I realise that criticism of Israel =/= antisemitism, but when the supporters of Palestine say 'WE ARE NOT ANTISEMITIC, WE ARE ANTI ZIONIST', they doth protest too much. They need to actually look at antisemitism where it does exist in their ranks, and kick it out, if they are to have any credibility - but of course they can't do that because they're in bed with some real Jew haters.

And they lose my support right there. I sympathise with the situation Palestinians are in, but I can't support their movement because of the shape it is in.

My partner is a Zionist and actually goes out of his way to buy fruit at the supermarket that was grown in Israel. I don't agree with Zionism and I don't think Israel should've come about in the first place because it has created more problems than it has solved. However, I support Israel continuing to exist because that's the least painful option. Even my boyfriend, who makes the (imo) stupid argument 'we (Jews) were there first!' agrees that the Israelis should not be building settlements and believes in a two-state solution.

Israel isn't protecting Jews, though that was its aim. Just because it's not fulfilling its original purpose doesn't mean we should dismantle it. Frankly, Israel has a lot of things going for it that seem obvious to me, that dismantling the state would be a disaster even for the Palestinians and the region in general. Hamas wanting to wipe Israel off the map seems counter-productive, to me. Criticism of Israel's flaws (which are many) needs to come from sane people who make every effort to distance themselves from loons.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 16 Nov 2012, 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Replace the word Palestinian with black or Jewish and see how that sounds.

Not really getting the point here, are you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ZiVRedU-4&feature=related[/youtube]

Rabbi Weiss makes the point that the Zionists wanted to 'take God out of Judaism and turn Judaism from religion into nationalism'. Considering that even at the admission of Zionists, Israel is a secular state it seems he is correct.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjWAGscG7rs&feature=related[/youtube]


Brave, brave brave IDF soliders at work
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&feature=related[/youtube]

Israel prohibiting Palestinian's movements even on their own land.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E23jXF_Naf4&feature=related[/youtube]

This is how Israeli border police treats Palestinian women, children and old people.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QorJMPtz1Fw&feature=related[/youtube]

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/octo ... nocide.php

Seriously if the Israelis are attempting to practice genocide, then they are the most incompetitent group of people when it comes to committing genocide in modern history, considering the Palestinian population is actually increasing, not declining...

Also CNN got caught again:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... n-Injuries

Just like 2006 with Reuters....

Additionally:

--- http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2012/11/15/p ... jr-5-site/

Looks to me that Hamas is deliberately putting innocent children in danger by using them as human meat shields and then profitting off the deaths of said children for propaganda purposes.

So to be perfectly blunt, I'm not going to condemn Israel, because I hold Hamas and the other terror groups responsible for the civilian deaths. The terrorists deliberately try to kill Israeli civilians and then put Palestinian children around their rocket launchers so those kids get killed to further their anti-Israel propaganda. In all honesty, I think most members of Hamas need to be charged with war crimes, convicted, and sentenced to death by firing squad.

Animal is contingent on the primitive elevation of blood, clanism, familism, and glorification of death above all else. We've moved past that, this isn't the year 8000 BCE.

What makes caveman animals, and us elevated is that we seek progress, elevation, holiness, things that allow us to rise above the things that make us primitive towards the divine.

Either something is true or it isn't. Replacing Black or Jewish makes far less sense, but I could make it work.

Jews and Muslims should live alongside each other, everywhere, peacefully. To support the creation of a racist state, free of those who they don't like, will just give us another Pakistan/India situation. Israel should fully incorporate into itself the Gaza and the West Bank. No one wants either... not even Jordan or Egypt. They didn't want them in 67' and no one has wanted them sense.

The only solution is to forward these Palestinians out of the stone age and into the era of progressive by fully incorporating them into Israel. They've been given numerous offers under Clinton, under Bush, to return as much as 90% of their land back, and they have foolishly denied anything short then the full expulsion of the Jews from the Holy Land.

I don't know of any rational people who distance themselves from the loons. I protested alongside many Palestinians from the surrounding UC schools in SF, and up here in Portland at PSU, and they, and their liberal sympathizers are all haters.

This is what they post on college campuses in California:



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flCYIwiFdGA[/youtube]

You have to have guts to stand up against the Left and their war on Israel. Much of it is fueled by antisemitism. Much of it is hypocritical, and nothing ignites the passions of the Left like the immoral existence of the state of Israel.

Why don't they go protest Panama or Pakistan? Why does Panama exist? Why does Pakistan exist? What is the preoccupation with such a tiny portion of the world? It is 100% fueled by hate, they have no excuses for the amount of time and hate they devout to the issue. And the amount of time they do devout to it is utterly racist -- 500 people will die in Mexico and not a single mention in any left-wing editorials, or deaths in Venezuela, or Pakistan, or Iran, or Congo, or anywhere else on earth. 1 Person dies in Palestine: 24 hour news coverage, Embassy's protested, Campuses filled with hateful rhetoric, Newspapers filled with reasons why this is the Isreali's fault and why it doesn't deserve to exist.

There you go again with your pipe dream.

I actually supported this 'solution' until I realised quite how hateful and genocidal the poor Palestinians really are.

Already picked over ad nauseam and it's not a serious solution to the Israeli conflict because it would end the Jewish state overnight - the end result? An Islamic war of total annihilation against the Israeli state and its people from all sides. The Jews (and all the pro-Israeli Arabs and Christians as well) would then be massacred.

The most logical solution is, of course, for Arab parts of the West Bank to be given to Jordan and Gaza to be given to Egypt or made independent but, as we all know, no-one wants the poor Palestinians.

None of this matters a fig though because of the inherent violence, brutality and hatred of the Palestinians.

You can't do any serious negotiations with people that want to wipe you out, it's as simple as that.

There you go again calling a bloodless solution a pipe dream.

It's only a bloodless solution if all the 7.9 million citizens of Israel just agree to leave Israel with no objection. What if they don't?

Are you going to round them up and deport them by force?

It is a pipe dream.