Christmas

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I'll celebrate the cuddly crocodile.

It wouldn't matter if it was from the ancient Romans, Christmas is still fun. I don't think it needs a religion to back it up, it's just one of those things that many many cultures have picked up. It's one of the very few festivals that even athiests join in with.

Came across this today - certainly more interesting and entertaining a read than other interminable, dull droning:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/20617780

Nice link. I think that a lot of folks here don't like the truth about Christmas and it's origins, and as such, go on the defensive when someone says that it's not a Christian holiday and things like that. It's human nature I suppose to react skeptically at this time honored tradition all over the world.

But c'mon guys. There's really no denying, from an unbiased examination of Christmas and where/how it came about (dates, tree, yule logs, etc...), that it is a wholly, completely, a pagan influenced holiday that has nothing Biblical. About the only thing 'Christian' about Christmas is that it happens to have the word Christ in it. If one looks at the Bible, it's clear about followers of God (Jew or Christian) not, under any circumstances, becoming involved in pagan holidays, celebrations, observances, etc... and again there really is not mistaking this clear guideline since there was a severe penalty for his people doing so, even death in some cases.

Well, I think if someone claims to be a Christian, they'll look at the example in the Bible and reason on that, and not their own ideas and interpretations. I'm not pointing fingers, nor judging or any of that nonsense. All I'm saying is for other professed Christians to ask themselves, honestly, that if pagan observances were wrong for God's followers then, why/how are they suddenly ok now?

Edited for atrocious spelling.

Did you follow the thread by any chance?

No one seems to care if it's pagan in origin. Except for kxmode, that is.

Also, it IS a Christian holiday for many people because for such people, they are celebrating Jesus' birth. So you are wrong to suggest that it is pagan to those people.

QFT!! !

Thank you for sharing. Very insightful.

I ask why was it wrong and punishable for the Jews to incorporate pagan practices into their worship? Why does the Bible also talk about it being wrong for Christians to copy paganism in theirs? Yet, as you say, no one seems to care that Christmas is pagan. This is very telling about mainstream Christian religions. They simply do not care if what they believe is pagan or not, or it's been so accepted for so long no one thinks otherwise.



Jesus was likely born in September or there about. The December 25th date is more Sol Invictus/Winter Solstice, than anything relating to Jesus' birth, so to the contrary of your claims, the Dec. 25th date is a Roman and pagan holiday as it predates the Jesus and Christianity by a long, long time. Basically, in a nutshell, the church combined Biblical and pagan teachings overtime, therefore severely bastardizing original Christian belief, morphing it into something else completely, and passed it off as a guise of Christian practice. This eventually culminated to where nowadays were Jesus to walk the earth, he'd no soon recognize his original Christian teaching from the pagan ones it's been passed off and blended with, for there was no decorated tree, yule log, or mistletoe in Christian practice then.

Exactly. That's why I post 1 Corinthians 10:21 a lot because it clearly shows a division between what Paul called "the cup of Jehovah" and "the cup of demons", “the table of Jehovah” and "the table of demons." It almost reminds me of Jesus words at Matthew 6:24 where he states, "No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other." In the context of Christmas for someone to claim to be Christian, to know the history of the celebration, and to knowingly continue to celebrate seems very hypocritical. Jesus said, "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Can someone honestly say Christmas is truthful?

You care, but other Christians do not. So why is it so hard for you to respect this?

Neither you nor they are better just for caring/not caring. At the end of the day, for me, the better person is not the one who thinks he's following the Bible better but the one who respects that other people have their own choices and rights so long as those choices and rights don't harm others.

Up until 1926 Bible Students, as Jehovah's Witnesses were called, celebrated Christmas. The celebration at Brooklyn headquarters was a very festive occasion. Shortly after 1926 they began to discern that the observance of December 25 was actually pagan and was chosen by apostate Christendom to make it easier to convert pagans. Instead of going along with the mainstream Christian religions those early Witnesses took steps to remove all traces of the celebration so that their worship would be pure and truthful. I'm sure there were many who didn't like this move and left, and likely started to attack those Bible Students. So is it more important to follow the truth found in God's word or to follow the traditions of men? I believe most fair-minded Christians would answer God's word.

Last edited by kxmode on 17 Dec 2012, 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Religious writings unfortunately, can devolve simply into semantics and arguments over words and interpretations, of which many are possible. I think many people settle there because the words are at least visable and something to sink there teeth into so-to-speak. And often the whole point of the religion is lost as people focus on minute details and attempt to define symbologies. These (subjective) definitions become rules, and the rules become the thing. In the Judeo-Christian line it is said to have been a characteristic of the Pharisees and thereafter of Legalistic Christians, even up to today.

But as far as Christmas goes its really a multipurpose holiday cobbled together from multiple sources and religions. Decorations and gift giving is a common theme today, but not exclusively.

Its ironic that even the fictional character Scrooge in Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' has the sense to say: "Keep Christmas in your own way, and let me keep it in mine."

No one is disrespecting what you think, nor am I meaning to insinuate that. It's actually your side, and the side of others like yourself, that I want to understand concerning the Christmas issue.

My argument is basically this: If pagan things are wrong in the Bible for both Jew and Christian, why are pagan things, i.e. Christmas, somehow ok nowadays since it goes against God's Biblical standards for his followers concerning paganism?

Your side is, presumably, something like this: Christmas is indeed pagan, but it's ok for a Christian to observe the holiday.

All I'm trying to understand is, in light of the evidence I've presented, how does a Christian rationalize the celebrating Christmas?

No, I don't think Christmas must be pagan. Whether Christmas is pagan or Christian is up to one's perspective. This is all subjective at the end of the day.

You believe Christmas is pagan, but other Christians believe it's Christian because they celebrate it for Christian reasons.

Just keep in mind that just because something has pagan elements or origins to it doesn't mean that it itself must be pagan.

If someone murdered 50 years ago, but now is a loving person with a family, who pays their taxes, and is a valuable member of the community, does this invalidate the crime they committed? Are they still guilty of the crime 50 years later?

If you replace the engine and interior of a Rolls Royce with Ford parts would you still call it a Rolls Royce?