GE/GMO Industry: Corporate Hijacking of Food and Agriculture

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LKL
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14 Mar 2013, 5:42 pm

eric76 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Our options are thus:

1) Use Genetic Engineering and other modern intensive farming methods to raise food yields to feed a hungry population.
2) Reduce the current population by about 90%.


There is another option: Global Warming.

Plants grow better in warm than cold. And higher CO2 is also good for plant growth.

If we want to be able to feed the population of this planet in 100 or 200 years, we need Global Warming.

Neither statement is entirely, or even mostly, true.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 092817.htm
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/co2plant.htm



eric76
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14 Mar 2013, 5:58 pm

LKL wrote:
eric76 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Our options are thus:

1) Use Genetic Engineering and other modern intensive farming methods to raise food yields to feed a hungry population.
2) Reduce the current population by about 90%.


There is another option: Global Warming.

Plants grow better in warm than cold. And higher CO2 is also good for plant growth.

If we want to be able to feed the population of this planet in 100 or 200 years, we need Global Warming.

Neither statement is entirely, or even mostly, true.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 092817.htm
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/co2plant.htm


Nobody is claiming that the benefits will be uniform over the entire planet. The overall benefits will certainly outweigh the problems.

With some difference in estimates, we are currently about 11,700 years into our current interglacial warm period named the Holocene. The last such interglacial warm period lasted about 12,000 years and was followed by roughly 100,000 years of massive glaciations across the face of the Earth.

The best that we can hope for is that Global Warming will help bring an end to the current ice age. Otherwise, the next glaciation is going to mean that starvation and death by starvation will be considered normal for most of the Earth and there will be a massive reduction in the population of mankind. If Global Warming helps postpone the next glaciation by thousands of years, we will benefit greatly.



Schneekugel
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15 Mar 2013, 5:40 am

I dont understand how food could get cheaper? Dont know how it function in the US, but in my country the minimum payment depends on the food prices. Lower food prices - lower minimum payment. To calculate the minimum payment, there is an existign list of products a normal customer needs to buy each month, including food, cleaning products, cloths, .... If the prices of that goods will be lowered, so will the minimum payment. So people will be able to afford as much food as before, but instead of normal natural food they were eating cheap garbage. And the people that are earning more money then the minimum payment anyway: So why the hell should I want to buy myself crazy non natural food? O_o So in 1000 years I will not buy that food, and I am not interested in spending hours in the supermarket studying products to know which of the food is polluted and which is normal. I also dont profit in any way when the poor people with minimum payment would be forced to buy that stuff, in the opposite: It would be a misadvantage for our neighbor farmers, which is a disadvantage for me.

Also my country is not outdated. So we have lots of research facilities. But they are simply not allowed to test careless plants, that are abled to spread themselfs. Either they are spreading themself by fruit production, which can be controlled or the research fields have to be under tents, so they cant fertilize themselves with the wind.

Also there were already bad experiences with plants, that were called to be already tested of being harmless. Which was simply a lie. So in france they startet to use DNA manipulated plants that inhabits a bit of poison, so that bugs and other small creatures avoid to eat and damage the plants. With those plants came the bee dying. When the farmers stopped using that plants, the bees started to act normal again. Research later found out, that the plants were tested, and the test showed correctly that the poison in the plants were not killing the bees. Thats why the company was allowed to sell that stuff. But as later independetn research showed: So the bees were not killed, but they were extremely dazed from the poison. Because of this dazing, they were no longer able to find their homes as they were used to, to remember their food places as they were used to, and to communicate a new found food place to their comerades bees as they were used too. So the company was right: Their damned plants were not killing the bees, they only drugged them until they were no longer able to live on their own.

The thing is: Its not about romantic crying for some bees. Bees are essential for our traditional agriculture. Lots of our traditional plants need bees for spreading. Loosing the bees forces us to do their work with normal human mancraft, that has to be payed. So the bit of money you save by using that garbage poisoned GMO plants, is easily refunded by the lots of other agricultural products, becoming more expensive because of the humans that need to do the bees work, that want to be payed.

So if the GMO companies and their researchers are able to learn what we mean with the world "prooved harmless", they are welcome. Noone will denie plants that are REALLY proofed to be harmless. But trying to trick us and cheat on us, willingly damaging our tradtional agriculture by trying tricks like "But our plants really do not kill the bees. They are dying alone form hunger, because of our plants drugging them, thats not our fault." and then crying around why we get suspicious against that as*hole companies and dont trust them any more, is a joke.

Fool us once, shame on you. Fool as twice, shame on us.

Quote:
The best that we can hope for is that Global Warming will help bring an end to the current ice age. Otherwise, the next glaciation is going to mean that starvation and death by starvation will be considered normal for most of the Earth and there will be a massive reduction in the population of mankind. If Global Warming helps postpone the next glaciation by thousands of years, we will benefit greatly.


Please stop that lying. Right now we are using some of the best agricultural land to raise plants that could feed people. Instead we feed the yield of this lands to animals. With the field space you misuse to produce food for an animal that is sufficient to feed one person, you would be able to feed instead up to 50 people if you would use it to grow food for people instead of food for cows. So sure we could watch millions of people die until our momentan food porduction fits again with the amount of people. We also could simply stop being asocial greedy beings, and start to produce food for people again, instead of producing food for animals, that are sold to some few people that can afford that waste of ressources. We could simply return to raising animals as we did in earlier times. So there are enough areas that you cant use for agricultural use, because of having to less nutrients, so there is nothing else growing then grass. Gather the grass two times a year and depending from the amount of hay you could gather during the year, you know how many animals you can feed. Thats how it worked for centuries.

But wanting to spread unproved, uncontrollable plants in our nature that is feeding 100% of our people, with no necessity to do so, only because some rich asocial beings, that are only 5% of our people, cant get their stomachs full enough with cheap flesh is madness and pervert.



eric76
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15 Mar 2013, 5:45 am

Schneekugel wrote:
Quote:
The best that we can hope for is that Global Warming will help bring an end to the current ice age. Otherwise, the next glaciation is going to mean that starvation and death by starvation will be considered normal for most of the Earth and there will be a massive reduction in the population of mankind. If Global Warming helps postpone the next glaciation by thousands of years, we will benefit greatly.


Please stop that lying. Right now we are using some of the best agricultural land to raise plants that could feed people. Instead we feed the yield of this lands to animals. With the field space you misuse to produce food for an animal that is sufficient to feed one person, you would be able to feed instead up to 50 people if you would use it to grow food for people instead of food for cows. So sure we could watch millions of people die until our momentan food porduction fits again with the amount of people. We also could simply stop being asocial greedy beings, and start to produce food for people again, instead of producing food for animals, that are sold to some few people that can afford that waste of ressources. We could simply return to raising animals as we did in earlier times. So there are enough areas that you cant use for agricultural use, because of having to less nutrients, so there is nothing else growing then grass. Gather the grass two times a year and depending from the amount of hay you could gather during the year, you know how many animals you can feed. Thats how it worked for centuries.

But wanting to spread unproved, uncontrollable plants in our nature that is feeding 100% of our people, with no necessity to do so, only because some rich asocial beings, that are only 5% of our people, cant get their stomachs full enough with cheap flesh is madness and pervert.


Do you really term the refusal to be panicked by all the hype out there to be "lying"? That's nonsense.



Last edited by eric76 on 15 Mar 2013, 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Schneekugel
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15 Mar 2013, 6:21 am

Sorry, but if we have enough space and ressources to feed our people, then "Otherwise, the next glaciation is going to mean that starvation and death by starvation will be considered normal for most of the Earth and there will be a massive reduction in the population of mankind." is a lie. But yes, I agree: We dont have enough agricultural area to feed our people AND grow tons of useless cotton to feed a useless fashion industry that tells people to buy new useless stuff every 6 month AND grow tons of plants that we use to make fuel out of them that allows us to fly and drive around, even if there is no use to it or to transport goods that are not life essential AND to feed tons of animals for luxury food.

You are right, there is no logical solution to it. *sarcasm*



eric76
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15 Mar 2013, 6:33 am

Schneekugel wrote:
Sorry, but if we have enough space and ressources to feed our people, then "Otherwise, the next glaciation is going to mean that starvation and death by starvation will be considered normal for most of the Earth and there will be a massive reduction in the population of mankind." is a lie.


During the little ice age, things got pretty tough all over with just a small drop in average temperature. During the last glaciation, the average temperature was considerably colder than that, generally about 4 to 8 degrees Centigrade colder. That brought glaciers as much as a mile high across major parts of the world. Do you really think that we can grow anywhere near what we would need to feed a population like we have today? Or even a tenth of that population?

It's no accident that mankind began to settle down and become farmers and take the first steps toward civilization at a time when it was substantially warmer than it is today.



Schneekugel
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15 Mar 2013, 6:51 am

Oh you mean the time, when europe was under ice and Sahara was a flourishing garden, home of lots of people that left us plenty of ancient cave paintings, showings animal herds, as great as the ones that was later running through europe when the actual holozän was starting?

Speaking of the actual warm period, do you know that it is known as one of the fastest natural temperature change of earth... the different of the 4-8 degree you speek of only needed about 6000 years, which is actual high speed for a natural temperature changing as ice probes show us? (But I am sure, our new pope will pray for us, so that the next ice time will not have suddenly started, when we wake up tomorrow morning.)

And did you know that, against the natural cooling of the earth, that now should happen according to statistics, instead earth is getting warmer because of some unnatural stuff like: Lots of trees that are chopped to have agricultural land to feed cows? Lots of pollution to produce useless cotton for useless fashion? Lots if pollution that gets into the air because of lots of people traveling around out of fun and sending lots of useless goods around the planet?

Are there any other questions I can answer you as Engineer for environmental techniques and development?



ruveyn
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15 Mar 2013, 7:03 am

Schneekugel wrote:

But wanting to spread unproved, uncontrollable plants in our nature that is feeding 100% of our people, with no necessity to do so, only because some rich asocial beings, that are only 5% of our people, cant get their stomachs full enough with cheap flesh is madness and pervert.


1. Every "natural" plant we consume to day is a genetic variation of its wild ancestor. A combination of genetic variation and selective breeding of plants has produced that.

2. If you really are spooked by GM plants, then don't eat them. Grow your own in your own garden.

3. There will always be a niche market producing non-GM plants because bat-sh*t crazy coo coo folks think that GM plants will kill them dead. Buy from the "natural"plant food stand down the road.


ruveyn



eric76
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15 Mar 2013, 7:08 am

Schneekugel wrote:
Oh you mean the time, when europe was under ice and Sahara was a flourishing garden, home of lots of people that left us plenty of ancient cave paintings, showings animal herds, as great as the ones that was later running through europe when the actual holozän was starting?


As I understand it, the Sahara greened during the Holocene/holozän Climatic Optimum when the average temperatures in the northern hemisphere were about 2.5 degrees Centigrade warmer than today.

Quote:
Speaking of the actual warm period, do you know that it is known as one of the fastest natural temperature change of earth... the different of the 4-8 degree you speek of only needed about 6000 years, which is actual high speed for a natural temperature changing as ice probes show us?


It was one of the faster, but not the fastest or the biggest. As I understand it (I could be wrong), the last few interglacial warm periods began with similarly fast temperature changes and that the previous interglacial warm period to ours, the Eemian, saw a greater rise than ours.

Quote:
And did you know that, against the natural cooling of the earth, that now should happen according to statistics, instead earth is getting warmer because of some unnatural stuff like: Lots of trees that are chopped to have agriculutral land to feed cows? Lots of pollution to produce useless cotton for useless fashion? Lots if pollution that gets into the air because of lots of people traveling around out of fun and sending lots of useless goods around the planet?


I don't know that because it is simply not true -- we do not know that the climate should be cooling, naturally or otherwise. There is a fair bit of variation in the lengths of the interglacial warm periods. Many were shorter than ours while some were considerably longer. It is quite misleading to claim that this interglacial period should be ending based on statistics.

That said, if Global Warming really is extending the length of this interglacial warm period, then that is absolutely fantastic -- probably the greatest news in our entire history of civilization.



Schneekugel
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15 Mar 2013, 8:32 am

ruveyn wrote:
Schneekugel wrote:

But wanting to spread unproved, uncontrollable plants in our nature that is feeding 100% of our people, with no necessity to do so, only because some rich asocial beings, that are only 5% of our people, cant get their stomachs full enough with cheap flesh is madness and pervert.


2. If you really are spooked by GM plants, then don't eat them. Grow your own in your own garden.

ruveyn


If you sold your country to greedy companies its ok. But where I live, people do not only own our garden, but WE as citizens of OUR country, own OUR country including OUR nature. Its OURS. Not THEIRS. So its US determing whats happening to our country, including our nature. No greedy company that are only interested in money. And its OUR governments that are forbidding that f****d up companies to pollute our country, because thats what WE told them to do, and its their job to do what we want. This companies are not forbidden, because of some weird protesting hippie guys, these plants and animals are forbidden because of an official plebiscite with the second best result of all plebiscites in the history of my country.

If you dont love your country and want to sell it to a damned company that has no interest in serving you or your countrys citizens, ok. But we normally dont tend to ruin our property so a company can make money. Our attitude led to us being called the delicatessen of europe. While you are known for dead bees, mutant chickens and ammoniak treated flesh. So I dont know, but being known for fine high quality food, seems for me so be much nicer. Why should we want to change that? So that noone wants to buy our food anymore and people in other countries start to create plebiscites to force their governments to forbid imports of our food into their countries?



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15 Mar 2013, 9:56 am

Beauty_pact wrote:
Quote:
Seralini and Science: an Open Letter

October 2nd, 2012 by jrlatham

(Authors listed below) (Traduction Francaise)

A new paper by the French group of Gilles-Eric Seralini describes harmful effects on rats fed diets containing genetically modified maize (variety NK603), with and without the herbicide Roundup, as well as Roundup alone. This peer-reviewed study (Seralini et al., 2012), has been criticized by some scientists whose views have been widely reported in the popular press (Carmen, 2012; Mestel, 2012; Revkin, 2012; Worstall, 2012). Seralini et al. (2012) extends the work of other studies demonstrating toxicity and/or endocrine-based impacts of Roundup (Gaivão et al., 2012; Kelly et al., 2010; Paganelli et al., 2010; Romano et al., 2012), as reviewed by Antoniou et al. (2010).

The Seralini publication, and resultant media attention, raise the profile of fundamental challenges faced by science in a world increasingly dominated by corporate influence. These challenges are important for all of science but are rarely discussed in scientific venues. [mod. edit: article truncated for copyright reasons]

Working links and footnotes found in the original article.

Link to original article: http://independentsciencenews.org/healt ... y-roundup/

Quote:
A Burning Controversy about
the Safety of Genetically Modified Food

by Joe Cummins, Emeritus Professor of Genetics,
University of Western Ontario

Genetically modified (genetically engineered) food is from crops that have been modified in the laboratory to contain genes that protect them from pests or affect their quality. Currently the technology demands that each construction should include a desirable gene, say to guard against pests, and an array of genes including virus genes and antibiotic resistance genes that are required for technical reasons. Crops currently on the market include soybean, corn, canola, cotton seed oil and potato.
[mod. edit: article truncated for copyright reasons]

Those rats were fed herbicides in doses that far exceed what even a rat would normally receive in the wild, so of course they would develop tumors. What next, pictures of aborted fetuses and cancerous lungs?

Ditch the scare-mongering tactics, stick to the facts, and curb those copyright violations while you're at it. GMOs are safe. Organically-grown foods are no better than traditionally-grown foods. There is no controversy except what ignorant reactionaries are making of it through their manipulatory propaganda.



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15 Mar 2013, 11:10 am

Fnord wrote:
Organically-grown foods are no better than traditionally-grown foods.

In fact, they're significantly worse because they require so much more room than traditional foods. This means that food is more expensive and there is less to go around.

Don't believe me? Look at the price of organic food compared to regular food.



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15 Mar 2013, 11:21 am

Quote:
(all foods are organic, being composes of carbon-based molecules).


Thanks for bringing this up. The whole "Organic" food label is one of my pet peeves. That and "Zero Emissions Vehicle".



Fnord
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15 Mar 2013, 12:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Organically-grown foods are no better than traditionally-grown foods.
In fact, they're significantly worse because they require so much more room than traditional foods. This means that food is more expensive and there is less to go around. Don't believe me? Look at the price of organic food compared to regular food.


Rakshasa72 wrote:
Quote:
(all foods are organic, being composes of carbon-based molecules).
Thanks for bringing this up. The whole "Organic" food label is one of my pet peeves. That and "Zero Emissions Vehicle".

You'll get no argument from me on these, as they are the TRUTH, which is something that seems to be in short supply in the organic foods industry.



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16 Mar 2013, 9:24 am

Someone posted cancer rats. That was a scare study and terrible science. A jump of the shark for GMO-opponents. Truly, the global warming deniers of the left.

Schneekugel wrote:
Monsanto already has sued lots of american farmers. The thing is, that you are not allowed to regrow a seed on which monsanto has patent. So normally a farmer takes his seed from that he got from the done crops of the year before, plants it, and when its grown out, he saves part of his seed again, so he can plant them the next year.

The problem is then not GMO food. But food monopoly. The solution is to have more competition in the GMO field, so that such abuses don't happen.


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16 Mar 2013, 10:33 am

To fully grasp the unscientific nature of the "cancer rat" study, here is another interesting fact.

"In the case of the paper by Seralini et al, journalists received the full-text in advance only after signing a non-disclosure agreement barring them from contacting any independent expert before publication."

http://www.eusja.org/eusja-statement-on ... ipulation/

Hmm... ... ...

Why am I not surprised, then, that the study has been almost universally condemned by the scientific community, and that several scientists are calling for its retraction?

Link to the "study", btw: http://www.gmfreecymru.org/pivotal_pape ... _paper.pdf