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Did Israel cause genocide on Ethiopians?

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ruveyn
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31 Jan 2013, 9:32 am

daydreamer84 wrote:

What happened to the Ethiopian immigrants was reprehensible and racist and I do not in the least condone it. Still ,some people here have compared Israel to the Nazi regime. If forced population control is tantamount to genocide, then there are many examples of recent genocides which happened/ are happening in many countries around the world (see above). That does not make it less horrible but Israel is not alone in this horribleness (if that's a word).



Unfortunately things in done is Israel which are not kosher in terms of Jewish Ethics. But much worse goes on else where. The anti-semites hold Jews to a higher level out of hatred and bigotry. Jews hold Jews to a higher level because Jews should know better than other folks.

The comedian Lewis Black once said of the Israelites: G-d gave the Israelites more commandments than any other nation (613 commandments), because the Israelites were only ten hairs away from being baboons. Since Lewis Black is Jewish, I accept his humor. He was exaggerating but only slightly In Biblical times the Israelites were as bad a** as the Jihadim are today.

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31 Jan 2013, 1:10 pm

Another reason why Israel is constantly criticized, I think, is the same reason why the English are attacked for past relations with Ireland/North Ireland, and the IRA. It's almost a knee jerk reaction for people to side with the weaker, much less technologically advanced side - no matter how bad their behavior - against a more powerful protagonist - even if the other side represents civilized law and order. Throw in legitimate grievances Palestinians have, as Irish Catholics had had, and people around the world are hooked on the notion that Israel or Britain are the epitome of evil - even though when compared to their enemies, they actually come off looking a helluva lot better looking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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31 Jan 2013, 2:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Another reason why Israel is constantly criticized, I think, is the same reason why the English are attacked for past relations with Ireland/North Ireland, and the IRA. It's almost a knee jerk reaction for people to side with the weaker, much less technologically advanced side - no matter how bad their behavior - against a more powerful protagonist - even if the other side represents civilized law and order. Throw in legitimate grievances Palestinians have, as Irish Catholics had had, and people around the world are hooked on the notion that Israel or Britain are the epitome of evil - even though when compared to their enemies, they actually come off looking a helluva lot better looking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Brits do have one thing to live down. Their response to Irish hunger during the Potato Famine was wicked and shameful.

The English have never treated the Irish particularly well, but their callous disregard of the starvation was really over the line.

It is a shame that the British of today still have to bear the consequence of their stupidity in 1854.

ruveyn



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31 Jan 2013, 4:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Another reason why Israel is constantly criticized, I think, is the same reason why the English are attacked for past relations with Ireland/North Ireland, and the IRA. It's almost a knee jerk reaction for people to side with the weaker, much less technologically advanced side - no matter how bad their behavior - against a more powerful protagonist - even if the other side represents civilized law and order. Throw in legitimate grievances Palestinians have, as Irish Catholics had had, and people around the world are hooked on the notion that Israel or Britain are the epitome of evil - even though when compared to their enemies, they actually come off looking a helluva lot better looking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Brits do have one thing to live down. Their response to Irish hunger during the Potato Famine was wicked and shameful.

The English have never treated the Irish particularly well, but their callous disregard of the starvation was really over the line.

It is a shame that the British of today still have to bear the consequence of their stupidity in 1854.

ruveyn




If you are interested to know why the Irish have such a bee in their bonnet about their 'cousins' to the immediate east I would also recommend researching Oliver Cromwell and the sacking of Drogheda.

Every fifth man, woman or child was put the sword and the rest of the population were shipped to the West Indies as slaves. English atrocities in Ireland don't begin with the famine, or even stopped since. There was also the Croake Park massacre in Dublin in the 20th century.


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31 Jan 2013, 5:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
If you are interested to know why the Irish have such a bee in their bonnet about their 'cousins' to the immediate east I would also recommend researching Oliver Cromwell and the sacking of Drogheda.


And, what is it, 350 years later, is it not time to let bygones be bygones? You might have more Planter or English blood in you than "traditional Irish" by this point.

(That doesn't mean I approve in any way of what Cromwell did. These were barbaric times, barbaric circumstances. We know all about that in England.

Or are you going to do your best Anjem Choudary act on us?

Oh, and remember 1641, by the way. Don't you think that may have had a slight influence?



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31 Jan 2013, 5:36 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
If you are interested to know why the Irish have such a bee in their bonnet about their 'cousins' to the immediate east I would also recommend researching Oliver Cromwell and the sacking of Drogheda.


And, what is it, 350 years later, is it not time to let bygones be bygones? You might have more Planter or English blood in you than "traditional Irish" by this point.

(That doesn't mean I approve in any way of what Cromwell did. These were barbaric times, barbaric circumstances. We know all about that in England.



i probably do have as much planter blood as irish blood, especially considering my background but that doesnt mean i revise history or act as an apologist for past wrongs.

Besides which, every lifetime it seems England drops us a reminder to let us know where the dividing line is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


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Tequila
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31 Jan 2013, 5:38 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Besides which, every lifetime it seems England drops us a reminder to let us know where the dividing line is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


Come on, what about Ballymurphy?

Any others? Perhaps you'll want to bring up Gib and Loughgall as well? (And they deserved it both times.)



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31 Jan 2013, 5:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Another reason why Israel is constantly criticized, I think, is the same reason why the English are attacked for past relations with Ireland/North Ireland, and the IRA. It's almost a knee jerk reaction for people to side with the weaker, much less technologically advanced side - no matter how bad their behavior - against a more powerful protagonist - even if the other side represents civilized law and order. Throw in legitimate grievances Palestinians have, as Irish Catholics had had, and people around the world are hooked on the notion that Israel or Britain are the epitome of evil - even though when compared to their enemies, they actually come off looking a helluva lot better looking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Brits do have one thing to live down. Their response to Irish hunger during the Potato Famine was wicked and shameful.

The English have never treated the Irish particularly well, but their callous disregard of the starvation was really over the line.

It is a shame that the British of today still have to bear the consequence of their stupidity in 1854.

ruveyn


The Whigs seized power under John Russell with the help of some Conservatives and were of the opinion that the Irish were being coddled and that they needed some free market fundamentalism to cure what ailed them. When Peel was in charge the Blight wasn't particularly deadly. When the Laissez-Faire crowd took over though, that was another thing entirely.

Oh, the Ulster Plantation was not unlike what the Israelis have done with the settlers. What's now Northern Ireland was the centre of Irish resistance to English rule. A programme of ethnic re-engineering in Ulster with the Ulster Plantation was the English response to that.



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31 Jan 2013, 5:53 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Besides which, every lifetime it seems England drops us a reminder to let us know where the dividing line is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


Come on, what about Ballymurphy?

Any others? Perhaps you'll want to bring up Gib and Loughgall as well? (And they deserved it both times.)


The deaths of combatants is one thing, shooting a civillian 14 times in the back as he already lay bleeding on the pavement is quite another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre


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31 Jan 2013, 6:00 pm

thomas81 wrote:
The deaths of combatants is one thing, shooting a civillian 14 times in the back as he already lay bleeding on the pavement is quite another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre


As I said, quite disgraceful incidents. In the Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy cases, those responsible should have gone to jail for a long time for what they did. You'll have no argument from me. You might understand, though, that for the British at that time, that that would have been very damaging considering that the Troubles were still very much ongoing.

The British (and Unionist) handling of the early Troubles was absolutely dreadful, I'm happy to admit that. Siding with hardline Unionists, stupidly bringing in a damaging internment policy without any foresight, and so on and so forth.

That still doesn't excuse the murderous vermin of the IRA, INLA, UDA, UVF (and some members of the UDR) and so on.



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31 Jan 2013, 6:07 pm

The role of Free Market Fundamentalism in the Potato Famine has not been properly appreciated and for obvious reasons.



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31 Jan 2013, 6:14 pm

xenon13 wrote:
The role of Free Market Fundamentalism in the Potato Famine has not been properly appreciated and for obvious reasons.


They did say that, while the free market didn't make the situation better, it didn't make it worse either given the practices of the time.

You have to remember that Ireland was still a very undeveloped and probably medieval part of the world in the 1840s.



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31 Jan 2013, 7:10 pm

Tequila wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The role of Free Market Fundamentalism in the Potato Famine has not been properly appreciated and for obvious reasons.


They did say that, while the free market didn't make the situation better, it didn't make it worse either given the practices of the time.

You have to remember that Ireland was still a very undeveloped and probably medieval part of the world in the 1840s.



Ireland survived the beginning of the Blight under Peel. When Russell took over, he vowed to impose free market fundamentalism on Ireland and the result was famine. It's the usual "tough love" approach... free market fundamentalism did make things a lot, lot worse. In fact, I consider the Potato Famine to have been an ideological famine, a famine in the name of Free Market Fundamentalism.



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31 Jan 2013, 7:47 pm

Tequila wrote:

(That doesn't mean I approve in any way of what Cromwell did. These were barbaric times, barbaric circumstances. We know all about that in England.

?


Cromwell was a mixed bag. He butchered the Irish by allowed Jews to re-enter England. Jews had been banned from England in the Middle Ages. England's first and last try at being a Republic failed because Cromwell was a religious fanatic. The only thing in Cristendom worse than a Catholic fanatic is a Protestant fanatic.

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31 Jan 2013, 8:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Another reason why Israel is constantly criticized, I think, is the same reason why the English are attacked for past relations with Ireland/North Ireland, and the IRA. It's almost a knee jerk reaction for people to side with the weaker, much less technologically advanced side - no matter how bad their behavior - against a more powerful protagonist - even if the other side represents civilized law and order. Throw in legitimate grievances Palestinians have, as Irish Catholics had had, and people around the world are hooked on the notion that Israel or Britain are the epitome of evil - even though when compared to their enemies, they actually come off looking a helluva lot better looking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Brits do have one thing to live down. Their response to Irish hunger during the Potato Famine was wicked and shameful.

The English have never treated the Irish particularly well, but their callous disregard of the starvation was really over the line.

It is a shame that the British of today still have to bear the consequence of their stupidity in 1854.

ruveyn


In the words of Ellie Weissel, "Only the guilty are guilty."
In no way should the British of today be held responsible for the potato famine than should Germans of today should be accountable for the Holocaust, or no more than Americans should be held as guilty today for what had been done to blacks and Native Americans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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31 Jan 2013, 8:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

In the words of Ellie Weissel, "Only the guilty are guilty."
In no way should the British of today be held responsible for the potato famine than should Germans of today should be accountable for the Holocaust, or no more than Americans should be held as guilty today for what had been done to blacks and Native Americans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


While today's Brit is in no wise guilty of the wrongs done in prior generations, it would be well if the wrongs done THEN were clearly a plainly admitted and aknowledged. One of the problems the Turks have is they will not even admit the genocide of the Armenians happened back in 1915. In a similar way, Japanese history textbooks are less than forthright about the actions of Japan in China and Manchuria and the atrocities there committed and they do not deal plainly with the cruelty done to Koreans, especially dragooning their women into sexual service for Japanese soldiers. In Japanes textbooks you see weasel word phrases like: "and then the war came..." Horse pebbles. Wars don't come. Wars are brought! Americans are somewhat more forthright about wrongs done to the aboriginal people, but even that can use some sharpening up.

Historical honesty is the only upright path to follow.

ruveyn