Outcome of the Verdict

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Yes and the mention was to illustrate the point that one can disapprove with a policy regardless of its objectives.



Why not go to Florida? You'll see many of your old neighbors and several relatives there among all the other Canadians and yankees.[/quote]

It's muggy & crazy.

If I were to move to a US city, I'd rather go to Minneapolis, Portland, or San Francisco.

I couldn't care less. I do not subscribe to political correctness as it numbs the mind and reasoning faculties. A jungle is a place where it is the rule of survival, not social order, no rule of law. To me, it in no way has anything to do with race.

Many urban areas you cannot rely on rule of law or the structures of civilization to protect yourself. Criminals increasingly operate with impunity, and if caught, they really are not punished to the extent they victimize society. Across the USA you used to be able to leave your home unlocked a night. Now you might need 2-3 deadbolts AND bars on the window AND one or more home defense weapons.

It's a disgusting thing when you have thugs freely roaming the streets and YOU have to have "security bars" over your windows to feel safe in your own home.



What is there to reconsider?

If you have black people committing crimes in your neighborhood...if they drive certain types of cars, dress a certain way, act a certain way, how are you in any way "racist" for being in fear of anyone fitting that appearance?

PROFILING IS A GOOD THING. We identify threats by noting what a threat looks like and keeping a watchful eye for anything fitting the profile. It's not illegal. It's not immoral.

The black community complains on how they are regarded. Well, what has the black community done to combat the criminal element within their own culture? We live in a world black people could only have dreamed of 3 generations ago. There is no such thing as a lack of educational opportunity for black people. They have access to the same crappy education as most any white kid has (my personal opinion on public schools), and I don't accept that color = inferior. The main reason why so many black kids don't do well in school is because they are not applying themselves...and the standard today to get an "A" is quite low compared to when I went to school.

The black community seems to enjoy rejecting the concept of doing your best in school, having an education, mastering the English language, etc. The black community seems to embrace teenage pregnancy, drug use, gang membership, etc. All of this brings them down as a whole, and for all the effort to solve these problems by the "white man" it has to come from within or nothing will ever change.

If you took a black person from 100 years ago and showed them how their descendants are regarding the opportunities they have today, they'd probably backhand them for being idiots. They are squandering and rejecting everything the civil rights movement fought to make available to them out of a false sense of "black pride." As such, they are keeping themselves at the bottom. This is not the "white man's" doing.

I don't fear black people just for being black, but I know a troublemaker when I see one. If the "law abiding" black people choose to culturally uplift the gang banger, dress like them, talk like them, act like them, then they have CHOSEN to be associated with them. That's their stupidity, not my bigotry.

If I went out and carried on like a member of a neo-Nazi group, even though I am not a neo-Nazi, I can fully expect to be treated as if I am one. Q.E.D.

Therein lies the problem with stand your ground. Zimmerman was not on his property during the time of the killing. He was an over zealous, neighbourhood watch man with an itchy trigger finger who had been patrolling his street in his car in the moments leading up till the Martin killing. Had he been at home minding his own business, the two individuals would never have crossed paths. Furthermore when he called the police, he chose to ignore their advice to not pursue and go home. HE KEPT ON PURSUING.

Martin was not a threat to Zimmerman at any point, he was carrying a soft drink and a bag of sweets.

The message that the Zimmerman acquittal sends is that its open season on loiterers or anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, which i'm afraid to say, for the reasons that nominalist has stated earlier in the thread is going to mean more white-on-black shootings.

Last edited by thomas81 on 15 Jul 2013, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Trigger happy is stretching a bit. Unless you can read minds you can't prove that fact. I think the SYG is a good idea. However you do have some validity to the trigger happy theory. I am all for baring arms but if you have a shoot first ask question later mentality then that is not healthy at all. After the mass murders proponents for gun ownership argue that they need it for their protection. Problem is most gun owners cannot properly identify a threat and that is what is hurting most responsible gun owners.

Exactly!

That is why in this country, and for that matter most other civilised developed countries, anyone who is not a trained professional, it is made as difficult as possible for them to obtain a firearm, and with good reason.

Anecdotally, I would tend to have the opposite view. Almost all of the people I know that carry a gun for self-defense have some level of self-defense training. A great many of them have training at or above the level of the average police officer - and nearly all of them have more range time than police officers.

The people who don't have any clue about identifying threats, de-escalating conflict, and justifiable use of force are (generally) the people who own guns in their home and *don't* carry.

And your violent crime rate reflects the results of denying law-abiding citizens the RIGHT to be armed.

Threat identification is a non-issue. Police officers are trained with simulations to see WHEN or IF they pull the trigger. Odds are if you had justification to get your gun out, you already know your target. The most tragic USA examples I can think of involve foolish people who decide to jump out and surprise a person who they know has a gun and does so in circumstances where the gun owner feared there was an intruder in their home and not a friendly prankster.

The problem with the system in America is that you have a completely inadequate vetting system for preventing innappropriate people from obtaining firearms, I know there is a clause that mentally ill people are not supposed to be sold guns unfortunately this is not being enforced by many firearms distributors, the end result being that any idiot with a pulse can readilly (and legally) get these weapons.

The argument that most american civillians can be trusted with guns because they have more 'range time' is silly. That means you are basically taking their proficiency and responsibility at face value.

My view is that the European system is superior because it ensures there is adequate vetting at point of demand and that the chances of guns finding their way into the hands of dangerous people is that much reduced, at least through the legal means.

Alright, lets go there. Education time.

Um, no. Every sale between a dealer and purchaser *must* go through a background check process. Here's the form: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download ... 4473-1.pdf

The law does not prohibit "mentally ill" people from owning firearms, it prevents people who have been deemed (by a court) to be a "danger to themselves or others". Generally, this happens when someone is involuntarily committed to a mental institution. Enforcement isn't a matter to the gun dealers, but the FBI, ATF, and state police - which administer the NICS background check system. Here's some background on that system: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/n ... transcript



Have you ever been to a gun range? The operators have *huge* liability concerns, so safety rules are strict and very rigorously enforced. I've watched morons come up to the range and be thrown out in minutes because they were acting recklessly - mostly these are people who are either a) entirely new to guns, or b) idiots who think the rules are dumb. I've never seen anyone who carries act irresponsibly on a range.

But even if that weren't true - I was talking about training in general, and brought up range time specifically. There are tons of training courses available for self-defense - and people who carry tend to take them like M&M's.



There's the rub - the vast majority of crimes committed in the US are committed with guns acquired illegally. Like I said, you cannot legally buy a firearm from a dealer without going through a background check - and dealers who sell without a background check are going to jail, losing their FFL, paying a huge fine, and (this is the key part) will never be able to own a firearm again for the rest of their lives.

This is worth pointing out not just in a U.S. context, but more generally in Europe too.

The left seem to labour under the delusion that if decent, law-abiding people are denied, refused or discouraged from owning guns, that violent, criminal savages will never get their hands on them because of this.

In fact, it tends to make it easier for the violent criminal types because they don't care about the law or even really about getting caught. They have no standards to adhere to.

The problem will remain and worsen, but you've removed personal responsibility from those who are responsible.

The UK has gun prohibition and nowhere near the same levels of problems with school shootings and public massacres as the United States. Our last school shooting (dunblane) was almost 20 years ago. I don't think thats a coincidence.

But your "violent crime" figures are off the charts compared to the USA. Every school shooting in the USA is the product of someone doing extensive planning and breaking multiple laws to set up and execute (no pun intended) their criminal act.

The same could easily happen in the UK if someone was so inclined. All they need it time and the means to obtain firearms illegally.

School shootings and whatever spree killers are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. People don't care about actual violent crime or it's root causes in this country, just what makes good TV. How many of have heard of Darryl Green? He was a 17 year old boy from Chicago that was murdered because he refused to join a gang. You don't see parasites like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton talk about this child or the slaughter that happens every day in our inner cities. It doesn't fit the narrative.

Our media has an agenda and if the story doesn't fit and they can't bend, twist, and manipulate the facts until it does it ignores it.
I hope Zimmerman gets a lot of money from NBC, they've done so much to damage this country with their disgusting political race baiting.

It’s pretty much common sense that if you are loitering in a neighborhood where you aren't known that you might draw attention, especially if there have been recent incidents in the neighborhood. If you have no business there, especially in a gated community, then move on through expeditiously. It would appear that Martin was not simply walking through or I seriously doubt Zimmerman would have paid much attention to him


This clearly demonstrates that you don’t know diddly about the “system in America”.

With regard to bolded portion:
So Trayvon walked through the wrong neighbourhood while black in the rain. This makes me sick. I may have my toque over my eyes, but Americans need to deal with this issue before it implodes. Black Americans of Trayvon's age are dealing with their ancestry of persecution and slavery.
Zimmerman profiled Martin, picked a fight with him, lost and shot his opponent.
This is not over; if you think it is you are cherry picking.
America kept slaves. A war decided they were wrong. Now there is a huge black population with a lot of animosity (and I think rightfully.) Deal with the wrongs you have done. You are a powerful country. If you fall, you will affect the world.

I'll keep it short:

US has lost the privilege to claim not to be a country full of racist s**ts.