[ Bible ] Capitalism is a Christian Concept

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Kraichgauer
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14 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
I'm confused. Are you saying that if an area uses money it is Capitalist? What about Communist countries that used money. Are they Capitalist?


No but I am saying that a monetary incentive is good when it comes to making people do jobs that otherwise they wouldn't wish to do. Also, I do not know if Karl Marx believed that money was an inherent part of communism so for all I know the communist countries that were using money may not have been communist. They would have been socialist. Money as a means of making profit has also I believe been a very good way of creating competition between businesses and therefore has facilitated technological innovation. Even Marx himself believed that capitalism had been a very key driving force in technological progression. He wasn't all 'anti-capitalist'. I just do not believe that people would be willing to do jobs if there were no financial incentive. If we scrapped money altogether, I am not utopian enough to believe that people would have a natural inclination to perform those jobs and even if people's incomes were entirely equal to one another, there would be protests as to why one person should get more pay than another person when they put far more effort into their job and it requires far more skill and knowledge. My original post was to someone who said that the capitalist system would not exist if people did not need meaningless tripe but I would dispute that. Sorry, I am confused myself. I probably sound like an idiot. i do not know what I really believe.


Prior to the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, capitalists saw Marx as something of a hero, as capitalists liked how he promoted their system as the natural evolution of the economy, all the while ignoring his prediction of the rise of socialism and the dictatorship of the proletariat. In the same way, the left used to embrace Nietzsche prior to the rise of Nazism.


Have you got some evidence to support the fact that they saw him as a hero? Also, they would have been justified slightly since Marx believed that capitalism was essential to creating technological innovation before it would reach its ugly demise. True, although Nietzsche's writings were distorted by his sister who used them to justify the third reich when Nietzsche himself expressed no nazi sentiments.


Capitalists in the 19th and early 20th centuries originally had used Marx as a source because he had argued that the capitalist system naturally replaced feudalism, and before that, feudalism had replaced slavery in the evolution of the economic system. Capitalists had simply ignored Marx's talk about capitalism eventually giving way to socialism.
As for Nietzsche - absolutely, his "Antisemitism" had been invented by his hateful sister following his death. The point is, though, the Nazis had accepted it as gospel truth, while teaching their own superficial take of Nietzscheism. After that, the damage had been done, and Nietzsche's historic reputation took a severe hit.


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wittgenstein
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20 Nov 2013, 8:37 am

Capitalism is based on the gambler ethic. One bets ( wall Street etc) on the productivity and creativity of others. Incredibly, its gotten worse. *There is now "human stock" one buys an interest in a person They give you money and then they take a percentage of your yearly income!
Christ frowned on gambling. He favored the work ethic.
* It was absurd when corporations became legally people. Now people are corporations! Now we can buy and trade individual people!


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20 Nov 2013, 10:13 am

Capitalism goes back to a time before the Kingdom of Sumer existed.


Humans have always produced and traded their goods and services.


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20 Nov 2013, 10:14 am

The Bible supports capitalism if capitalism is done right.

The Bible pushes for people to SERVE others. If you go out to eat at a restaurant, your are waited on by a SERVER, who is a type of servant. When you get your food, you show your APPRECIATION for your meal by compensating the establishment for the cost of the food and for their SERVICE. That's what capitalism is when done Biblically.

When you go to your job every day, you go to provide a SERVICE to your company who, in turn, compensates you for your time and productivity. Your company in turn SERVES the community by providing products and SERVICES that community needs. The community shows them appreciation for their goods and services by giving them money in order to support their continuing SERVICE.

The most successful and wealthiest capitalists out there don't really care about money. They enjoy what they do and simply wish to keep doing it. Money is just the icing on the cake. If they cared about money so much, they'd do everything they could to avoid spending it...which means they wouldn't hire employees, they'd cut overhead and inventory to the bone, and they wouldn't invest in the people they seek to sell to. All monetary income does is help keep the winners winning. If you want to win at capitalism, nobody is going to stop you. Your only hindrance is the level at which you are WILLING to work and sacrifice to make things happen. Approach work with the attitude of dedication to your passion and willingness to passionately SERVE your community and the money will pour in. There's no magic formula...just work. If you don't like work and you aren't passionate about anything, and if you're content to play video games all day, complain because you have a college education and doors still aren't opening, feel sorry for yourself, and just let the government take care of you and dictate what you can/can't do, then you're not going to enjoy a free market capitalist system. If you like to win, capitalism is for you.



Kraichgauer
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20 Nov 2013, 12:26 pm

AngelRho wrote:
The Bible supports capitalism if capitalism is done right.

The Bible pushes for people to SERVE others. If you go out to eat at a restaurant, your are waited on by a SERVER, who is a type of servant. When you get your food, you show your APPRECIATION for your meal by compensating the establishment for the cost of the food and for their SERVICE. That's what capitalism is when done Biblically.

When you go to your job every day, you go to provide a SERVICE to your company who, in turn, compensates you for your time and productivity. Your company in turn SERVES the community by providing products and SERVICES that community needs. The community shows them appreciation for their goods and services by giving them money in order to support their continuing SERVICE.

The most successful and wealthiest capitalists out there don't really care about money. They enjoy what they do and simply wish to keep doing it. Money is just the icing on the cake. If they cared about money so much, they'd do everything they could to avoid spending it...which means they wouldn't hire employees, they'd cut overhead and inventory to the bone, and they wouldn't invest in the people they seek to sell to. All monetary income does is help keep the winners winning. If you want to win at capitalism, nobody is going to stop you. Your only hindrance is the level at which you are WILLING to work and sacrifice to make things happen. Approach work with the attitude of dedication to your passion and willingness to passionately SERVE your community and the money will pour in. There's no magic formula...just work. If you don't like work and you aren't passionate about anything, and if you're content to play video games all day, complain because you have a college education and doors still aren't opening, feel sorry for yourself, and just let the government take care of you and dictate what you can/can't do, then you're not going to enjoy a free market capitalist system. If you like to win, capitalism is for you.


Actually, plenty of successful practitioners of capitalism do in fact sacrifice the well being of their employees for the sake of the all mighty dollar. Think only of the outsourcing and downsizing by major employers that have left the American working class devastated. Walmart, while forcing their employees to work through the holidays, has started a collection for food - that is, for employees to donate food for themselves!! !! ! While McDonald's and Burger King literally pay their employees starvation wages - and suggest they remedy this by working two or more jobs.
While I agree one hundred percent that the Bible prescribes the proper way for employers to behave, few of them today actually follow it. They make money out of worship of the dollar, not out of love for work or service to others.


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AngelRho
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20 Nov 2013, 11:06 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The Bible supports capitalism if capitalism is done right.

The Bible pushes for people to SERVE others. If you go out to eat at a restaurant, your are waited on by a SERVER, who is a type of servant. When you get your food, you show your APPRECIATION for your meal by compensating the establishment for the cost of the food and for their SERVICE. That's what capitalism is when done Biblically.

When you go to your job every day, you go to provide a SERVICE to your company who, in turn, compensates you for your time and productivity. Your company in turn SERVES the community by providing products and SERVICES that community needs. The community shows them appreciation for their goods and services by giving them money in order to support their continuing SERVICE.

The most successful and wealthiest capitalists out there don't really care about money. They enjoy what they do and simply wish to keep doing it. Money is just the icing on the cake. If they cared about money so much, they'd do everything they could to avoid spending it...which means they wouldn't hire employees, they'd cut overhead and inventory to the bone, and they wouldn't invest in the people they seek to sell to. All monetary income does is help keep the winners winning. If you want to win at capitalism, nobody is going to stop you. Your only hindrance is the level at which you are WILLING to work and sacrifice to make things happen. Approach work with the attitude of dedication to your passion and willingness to passionately SERVE your community and the money will pour in. There's no magic formula...just work. If you don't like work and you aren't passionate about anything, and if you're content to play video games all day, complain because you have a college education and doors still aren't opening, feel sorry for yourself, and just let the government take care of you and dictate what you can/can't do, then you're not going to enjoy a free market capitalist system. If you like to win, capitalism is for you.


Actually, plenty of successful practitioners of capitalism do in fact sacrifice the well being of their employees for the sake of the all mighty dollar. Think only of the outsourcing and downsizing by major employers that have left the American working class devastated. Walmart, while forcing their employees to work through the holidays, has started a collection for food - that is, for employees to donate food for themselves!! !! ! While McDonald's and Burger King literally pay their employees starvation wages - and suggest they remedy this by working two or more jobs.
While I agree one hundred percent that the Bible prescribes the proper way for employers to behave, few of them today actually follow it. They make money out of worship of the dollar, not out of love for work or service to others.

Oh, I hate Walmart. And I used to work for McDonald's, so you're not telling me anything new there. But you DO have to take Walmart and McDonald's at the value of what they are: Great STARTER jobs for people who need a break. They are a means to an end, not ends unto themselves. Which is not to say that some passionate person who has a deep love for Walmart and McDonald's couldn't be hugely successful in those companies, but you'd really have to want it pretty bad. I'm not sure I would understand why anyone would want to, but to each his own.

When I worked at McDonald's I worked plenty overtime WHEN I worked only to have my hours severely cut in subsequent weeks. I didn't care to get another job, but those are the kinds of jobs that allow you to pick up extra jobs if you need them. There's nothing wrong with that, I just wouldn't want to make a permanent lifestyle of it. Right now I'm experiencing unusually high turnaround in my piano students, and there's this florist/consignment shop I pass by on the way to and from dropping off the kids at school that puts up a "help wanted" sign from time to time. Given how things aren't going that well for me at the moment, a temporary, seasonal gig might just be what I need.

And I'm fully aware of how corporations trample their employees at the base entry level. My wife recently left a bank job like that. But not all employers are like that.

The thing is, why would you WANT to work for someone like that? People, usually highly educated people, look at the big corporations as their big breaks without considering that they already have their executive structure and aren't looking to change it. The quickest way to becoming a CEO is start your own business. But you won't make much money or get very far if you fail to recognize your role as public servant.



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20 Nov 2013, 11:15 pm

Without getting into mental gymnastics and fights over it, here is what I have noticed in regards to capitalism/free markets/Conservalibertarianism :) :

-He told them not to move the boundary markers (Old Testament)

-Jesus never used power to get his way (otherwise he would have become a literal king)

-The example you mentioned

-All that communal ism was based on an urgent need, and it was voluntary.

-A man that does not provide for his family is vile

-God said to take dominion over the earth (homesteading principle)

-When a woman was caught in adultery, he said go and sin no more, and did not beat her up.

-Jesus preached peace.