Page 5 of 7 [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

CockneyRebel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 116,889
Location: In my little Olympic World of peace and love

18 Nov 2013, 8:40 pm

I agree with you and I feel that it's very wrong to kill the disabled just because they're handicapped. There are many ignorant people who feel that it's okay to do so and they go to bed at night thinking that it's okay. I'm also against euthanasia and assisted suicide because I feel that every human life should be protected from conception until natural death. In other words, I'm one of those Christian Right to Lifers. I'm also against all abortion, especially the abortion of special needs babies. There are foster parents who want to adopt special needs children and they're trained to do so. Not everybody wants only perfect babies and children. There are people who presume that very thing and we all have Hitler to thank.

Sids are Sweet Peas.

Image


_________________
The Family Enigma


MynameisAnna
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Female
Posts: 78
Location: I live in the United States.

18 Nov 2013, 8:58 pm

I do not only
have autism.
I have
cerebral palsy
as well.
I do not want to die.


_________________
I am Anna.
I am 20.
I type like this
because,
I can only express
one thought at a time.


OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

18 Nov 2013, 9:12 pm

DarkRain wrote:
Troy_Guther wrote:
At the risk of making myself a pariah, I will say this. I would never advocate outright killing the disabled except under the most dire of circumstances. But I wouldn't really mind if there just weren't any more of them from now on.


That's about one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard someone on here say. Ugh.


I took it that he meant that they either had cures for the diseases or some way to genetically manipulate a fertilized egg into not having any disability from birth. Although accidents cause many disabilities, I suppose there would have to be a cure for most of them instead of just gene manipulation. That would be a good thing though, to cure people, like make Michael J Fox, he wants a cure for his. I'd think then though we would have to go further into it and start curing mental illness and everything else because nobody would want anyone who wasn't perfect around. But, like I said, curing illness is a good thing. I don't know of anybody with a for real serious illness or disorder who doesn't want it cured if possible. I'm not talking about AS or something, I'm talking seriously debilitating things.



Tawaki
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,439
Location: occupied 313

18 Nov 2013, 9:22 pm

beneficii wrote:
Those who think it's OK to kill the disabled are nothing more than psychopaths:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dis ... e-disabled


That was such a poorly written article, it was almost unreadable.

A little proof reading and editing would have gotten the point across much better.

What she wrote about is nothing new, and she offered no original view points other that "people want to off the less than perfect."

Welcome to the world Buttercup. It's always been there, just the internet gives the rabble rousers a big playground to spew stupidity.

And for psychological today #FAIL #pointless #GetBetterContentEditor



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

18 Nov 2013, 9:33 pm

.....



Last edited by Verdandi on 19 Nov 2013, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

18 Nov 2013, 9:47 pm

beneficii wrote:
Quote:
With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilized men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination. We build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected.[8]


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Notable_C ... ent_of_Man
Yeah, Darwin was wrong about that. He didn't take culture into account. Humans pass on more than just genes; for cultural animals, protecting the weak increases diversity, allows for greater specialization, and strengthens the culture's ability to compete against other cultures. In sociocultural animals like humans, the tendency to protect the weak is an evolutionary asset that aids survival.

By the way, "savages", as Darwin called them, are just as altruistic as modern humans. They don't kill weak members any more often than people who live in cities. Quite far back in human evolution we've found skeletons of disabled or elderly people who could not have survived without others' help, but who evidently did survive after their injury or into their elderly years. Cooperating and helping each other, far from being an evolutionary drawback, is probably a large part of why we are modern humans rather than yet another species of chimpanzee-like apes.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

19 Nov 2013, 1:04 am

You can try.



beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,245

19 Nov 2013, 4:54 am

Exclavius wrote:
Verdandi, by your condemnation of "differently abled" vs "disabled" you are saying that everyone is disabled.

No one is as strong as the strongest person, thus everyone else is disabled.
No one is as smart as the smartest person, thus everyone else (including the strongest person aforementioned, unless he is also the smartest person) is disabled.

Ergo: everyone is disabled.
Everyone is special, and once everyone is special, no one is special again.

Circular reasoning.
Fail.

Even a more realistic analogy here, everyone has something that they're in the bottom 10% of the population at.
Everyone does, some of us have more such things, others have fewer, but everyone has something they're well below average at. Ergo: Disabled.

To see reality, you have to think outside of the box... and continuing to think that you're special, or that humanity is special, or that any one person is special, precludes the ability to do so.

Yes there are interactions between humans that don't occur between potatoes, but one person who has given into disability will leach the goodness and wealth out of those around him without offering anything back, just as the potato does. The rotten potato does not improve itself by the drain it creates on the others. If it did, and that improvement was more than the drain on the others, then it would be worth keeping it.

The same analogy goes to the humans, if the one that is being helped improves more than the cost of the helping, then it was a worthwhile trade, and in the group's best interest, and should be done.

You called me a capitalist, and at one time that would've insulted me badly, but now it brings a greedy smile to my face. But the truth is here, when i say COST, i don't mean just $$$$ cost, i mean all costs, when I say gains, i mean other gains too, not just money. You cannot perform at a cost-benefit analysis and only look at dollar values.... BUT you can put a dollar value on social harmony and the other things you're talking about, and you need to, to be able to analyse the situation.

If you can offer fair compensation for what you consume, use, need etc... Then you're not disabled.
Yes you have limitations, everyone has limitations.
Some people can't lift more than 5 pounds, okay nothing should be allowed to weight more than 5 pounds now.
I myself can't understand a thing when more than one person is talking at the same time (many of us have that issue) okay, let's pass a law that says if someone within earshot is talking, you go to jail if you start talking before they're done!

I know those are flippant examples, but what i'm saying is that it is your responsibility to control your environment to meet with your limitations, otherwise the entire world has to be kept within your limitations, and you have to be kept within the limitations of the most "disabled" member of society in every other aspect of life. It's the "No child left behind" policy... read up on it, it makes the smart dumb and the dumb dumber.

I started this train of posts with more of a "Devil's Advocate" rationale. But the lack of concrete, logical counters to my arguments, the emotional baggage behind the weak attempts to refute me are making me really sad... I wanted someone to hand me the "you're wrong" card. I haven't seen it yet.

That really is sadness too, thank you! Maybe i still am alive inside after all, i haven't felt an emotion in a long time.


Actually, it's you who is making bad assumptions. You assume that our prosocial tendencies to take care of our own can't possibly make up for any costs associated with taking care of the disabled. You assume that adopting antisocial tendencies in society can't possibly have any great cost, at least not as much as taking on that of the disabled. Charles Darwin himself wrote on this. Did you miss it?

The burden is on you, not us.

I also don't like the fact that you seem to have been waffling on your opinion a lot. Stick to one thing and let's examine it.

Got it?



Last edited by beneficii on 19 Nov 2013, 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,245

19 Nov 2013, 4:55 am

Callista wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Quote:
With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilized men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination. We build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected.[8]


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Notable_C ... ent_of_Man
Yeah, Darwin was wrong about that. He didn't take culture into account. Humans pass on more than just genes; for cultural animals, protecting the weak increases diversity, allows for greater specialization, and strengthens the culture's ability to compete against other cultures. In sociocultural animals like humans, the tendency to protect the weak is an evolutionary asset that aids survival.

By the way, "savages", as Darwin called them, are just as altruistic as modern humans. They don't kill weak members any more often than people who live in cities. Quite far back in human evolution we've found skeletons of disabled or elderly people who could not have survived without others' help, but who evidently did survive after their injury or into their elderly years. Cooperating and helping each other, far from being an evolutionary drawback, is probably a large part of why we are modern humans rather than yet another species of chimpanzee-like apes.


The reason I posted that didn't have anything to do with that. I know they had messed up assumptions during those times. The point was to show the Social Darwinists that even their hero took them to task.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

19 Nov 2013, 8:38 am

Thread moved from General Autism Discussion to Philosophy, Politics and Religion.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


Schneekugel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,612

19 Nov 2013, 8:50 am

I think people simply miss technological development. Tons of stuff that was a drop out criterium, simply isnt anymore, because of our medical and technical development. Best example: Shortsightness. Today noone really cares for that, you simply get yourself some lenses or goggles, and thats it. Just like tons of other illnesses are hardly recognized anymore as illnesses, because they are easily medical treated. Getting into eugenics to "wipe out" a certain illness is simply nonsense, because we dont stand still, but will in future be able to handle further illnesses as easy. Additional, that we are right now only at the beginning of DNA scientific. In one or two centuries, all kind of physical illnesses, simply will be wiped out by DNA manipulation. Which will leave in my oppinion only "illnesses" like trisonomy or Aspergers, where its hard to separate the "illness" from the personality. I think about such stuff, there will be a broad morale discussion about it, if we as humans have the right to involve ourselves into the mental development of ourselves. While when it comes to stuff, like bad feet, shortsightness, asthma, and knows hell what, noone will care for that to vanish. ^^



GinBlossoms
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 173

19 Nov 2013, 8:53 am

bumble wrote:
Have you considered that some people might only be disabled because of the way society has been set up? That society itself actually creates these otherwise non existent disabilities?

Ok, to really play the devil's advocate, has anybody here considered this slippery slope of political correctness? Sure, I want to see more people educated about ASD and the like, but when does the tolerance and anti-discrimination end? I'm sorry, but I sometimes don't mind if people oppose somebody in a position or something whose disability had an impact.

Besides, when a disabled person is killed, it's no worse if it was otherwise a "normy" person.



BuyerBeware
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,476
Location: PA, USA

19 Nov 2013, 9:15 am

As far as the original article goes, it's basically an op-ed piece. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. Take it for just exactly that.

My father, on the issue of subjects like welfare reform, was extremely fond of saying that "The measure of a society is how well it cares for its weakest member."

What do I think of that?? Well, it's certainly true that a society that nurtures every weak member, at least to the point of treating their weakness as irrelevant, isn't going to succeed, simply on the basis that, sooner or later, there won't be enough strong members to care for the weak.

It's equally true, however, that a society that chooses not to care for ANY weak member is brittle and moribund. Lois Lowry had an axe the size of Paul Bunyan's to grind in The Giver quartet (there are 4 books, and they just keep getting better--check them out sometime, especially if you lay awake nights and wonder what REALLY happened to Jonas and Gabe)-- granted. HUGE axe to grind. Also granted that life does not unfold in the convenient, controlled, and structured manner of a novel. All a story can do is mirror someone's conception of how life is (or, more often, how it should be).

Notwithstanding, the trouble with the current human concept of natural selection is that someone should be driving the selection, as in the breeding of dogs. It is acceptable to select for certain traits in, say, a German Shepherd (though given their current predisposition to hip dysplasia, one might say we've gone a bit far-- that in fact our high-handed meddling has been destructive to the breed).

Humans-- all of us, even the John Galts and Harrison Bergerons among us, the prime specimens and mental giants-- are human, thus limited in their vision and fallible. We don't know with any reliable certainty what is going to prove truly beneficial and adaptive IN OUR OWN TIMES; we have practically ZERO ability to predict what is going to be adaptive in some future scenario.

I'm sure we're all familiar with Thom Hartmann's conceptualization of ADHD as a trait that was predominantly beneficial in a hunter/warrior society. It's not too much of a stretch to see Asperger's as being predominantly beneficial in a gathering/farming society either-- an excellent visual memory, attention to detail, and high tolerance for tedium require no explanation to see how they'd be useful enough in that environment to more than compensate for being clumsy and having a tendency to stick one's foot in one's mouth. The stereotypical "laconic farmer" is an Aspie in a nutshell.

Nobody is going to argue that someone who cannot care for themselves should have a pack of kids-- it wasn't allowed before modern times, and it isn't encouraged now. Other than rapists and profound romantic fools, nobody wants to breed with someone who is not capable of carrying out the basic functions of life.

THAT is natural selection at work. The eugenics movement, which seeks to replace common sense with human intelligence, isn't natural selection at all.

As to the comment about THINKING you are disabled (versus differently abled) MAKING you disabled...

...my husband would argue that I am living proof of the validity of that argument. Limitations exist-- I am never going to be a high-powered executive, a brilliant mathematician, or a beauty queen. But a lot of our limitations are personally and artificially constructed-- we do not attempt what we believe we cannot accomplish; if we throw up our hands and say, "I cannot do it" when we become frustrated, we do not learn.

My example is relevant here: For ten years, I raised children and ran a house. Not perfectly (perfection is a myth), but competently enough. We were clean, we ate nutritous food, the budget was balanced at the end of every month, children learned, children were disciplined and hugged, we laughed and smiled, nobody died.

I got depressed. I asked for help; based on their limited knowledge of my diagnosis, the people I asked for help told me I could not possibly do those things. I had to be deluding myself, it had to be a fluke or through someone else's agency, my children had to be maladjusted, I had to be abusive. I tried to be compliant-- and I succeeded. Within a few months, my house was unkempt (not merely cluttered and untidy-- chaotic and bordering on filthy), my children were running half feral while I sat on the couch in a risperidone fog mourning the fact that I did not realize this was the only way it could ever have been, and, lo and behold, by the end of it my children found themselves being smacked around and savagely berated for simple mistakes.

Years later, we're still digging out of that mess. So completely did I accept what I was told that I'm still digging out of that belief; so totally did I internalize it (on a couple of different occasions) that I may never be able to leave it fully behind. But my husband will attest-- LOUDLY AND VEHEMENTLY (believe me, he does it all the time)-- that the good days are the days when I believe in myself and do what I know is right and what I know I am capable of with a happy heart, and the bad days are the days that I drag myself through the bare basics sobbing that I can do no better, shouldn't have bred, the children are all hopeless, and et cetera.

Based on my son's deteriorating behavior as I've been losing that struggle for the past three or four weeks, I think his teacher would also be inclined to agree.

Within the limitations of common sense, you do indeed tend to become what you believe yourself to be.


_________________
"Alas, our dried voices when we whisper together are quiet and meaningless, as wind in dry grass, or rats' feet over broken glass in our dry cellar." --TS Eliot, "The Hollow Men"


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

19 Nov 2013, 11:52 am

beneficii wrote:
Those who think it's OK to kill the disabled are nothing more than psychopaths:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dis ... e-disabled


How about those who are not in favor of killing the disable but are not in favor being forced to support them and keep them alive.

Remember, not helping a person to live is NOT the same thing as killing that person. Killing requires an act of commission. Not supporting a person is an act of omission.

ruveyn



Edgar
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2013
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 11

19 Nov 2013, 5:32 pm

As someone with disabling autism, who did NOT ask for it, I'm sad to see that some people here would rather I just go away and die than get help.
You know what? I HAVE given up. No one ever taught me what I needed to be taught. No one ever helped me. Society never helped me. Society did everything it could to kill me. I am surprised I'm even still alive, but I won't be much longer, it is just NOT. WORTH. IT.



Edgar
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2013
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 11

19 Nov 2013, 5:35 pm

ruveyn wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Those who think it's OK to kill the disabled are nothing more than psychopaths:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dis ... e-disabled


How about those who are not in favor of killing the disable but are not in favor being forced to support them and keep them alive.

Remember, not helping a person to live is NOT the same thing as killing that person. Killing requires an act of commission. Not supporting a person is an act of omission.

ruveyn


Those who just can't be bothered to be "forced" to help someone live are FAR WORSE than those who do the actual killing, because their behavior ALLOWS the killers to come into existence to begin with.