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B19
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07 May 2014, 3:09 pm

I can understand why you might think that, but a mass of evidence contradicts your assumption.

It's all out there if you want to find it, and it's easy to find.

Adoption is a second or third best choice (IVF) for the adopters (usually). They wanted their own children, not adoptive substitutes - with rare exceptions.

Adoption began in the states to fill labour shortages - the terrible "orphan trains" - to use child labour free of charge. Then it became a means of social control and punishment of women who had children without marriage. And now it is used to solve the adult problem of infertility, though the romanticisation pretends that it is solely about the child's needs being filled by selfless parents. That is simply not reality, and it is not good for the mental health of the adopted child.



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07 May 2014, 3:14 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
^Yeah, but the chances of an adoptive parent abusing/neglecting their purchase dramatically increases.


You are being a complete dick towards adoptive parents. As I've mentioned before, I'm adopted and I find your remarks highly offensive on behalf of my adoptive parents. You appear to have some sort of sick obsession about adoption and adoptive parents. It isn't healthy.


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B19
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07 May 2014, 3:25 pm

One swallow doesn't make a Summer. Yes, there are individual experiences that are positive. There are always exceptions to the rule, in life, in everything.

But you can't generalise from a single case - well you can, though it adds little to understanding a cultural/political practice.



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07 May 2014, 4:13 pm

B19 wrote:
I can understand why you might think that, but a mass of evidence contradicts your assumption.

It's all out there if you want to find it, and it's easy to find.


I went on a google hunt for studies that would address spongy's assumption that adoptive parents are less likely to be abusive than biological parents because they have sought out the child.

I couldn't find any evidence (let alone masses) to contradict spongy's assumption but also no studies to support it. The studies turned up by my google search for rates of abuse of adopted children all addressed abuse prior to adoption. Apparently, the longer a child is in the foster care system, the more likely they are to be abused prior to adoption, if they ever get adopted. That doesn't speak well of the foster care system and in fact makes a case for getting kids adopted as fast as possible so they spend as little time as possible in the foster care system. I am not posting those links because this thread is about adoption, not fostering.

As far as abuse after adoption, I couldn't find studies. It was all magazine articles about specific cases. Many were heart warming first person accounts of adults recalling their adoptive parents in a positive light. Mothers Day and Fathers Day tend to bring about those sort of articles and then they go into the google store house.

There were some negative articles too about post-adoption abuse, usually about specific horrific cases.

There's this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belk ... 81617.html

It is a grim article about adopted children who were "punished to death" by religious parents when they wouldn't toe the line.
Quote:
(magazine article)
Much attention has been paid to the religious pieces of a this tale. Less noted is that each of these children joined these families through adoption. Sean was born in the US, as were his five adopted siblings. Hana was from Ethiopia, as was her adopted brother (their parents had six biological children as well), and Lydia was from Liberia (there were two other adopted siblings among the family's nine children.)

Is this merely grisly coincidence? Or is there something about the adoption dynamic that makes violent abuse more likely?

One possibility is that adoptive children -- particularly those who spend their earliest years in an orphanage or shuttling from one foster caregiver to the next -- are more likely to suffer reactive attachment disorder, which are essentially the inability not only to bond, but to feel. The effects are not just psychological, but also physical, with evidence these children can have elevated levels of the hormone cortisol, which increases their tolerance for pain. Some speculate that spanking a child with Reactive Attachment Disorder can spiral out of control quickly, because it takes abusive levels of pain before the child actually feels it and responds.


Here you have a perfect storm of possible Reactive Attachment Disorder (a perilous side effect of staying too long in an orphanage prior to adoption) and parents who favor harsh punitive discipline. What I am getting from this story (and others like it that I didn't link) is not that adoption is a bad thing but rather that orphanages are a bad thing (because staying in them too long can cause Reactive Attachment Disorder) and harsh punitive discipline is a bad thing. If those kids had been adopted into a mellower family that didn't use harsh punitive discipline, they would be alive and possibly writing Mothers/Fathers Day odes to adoptive parents someday in the future. This can be screened for by asking prospective parents what they would do in a particular misbehaviour situation.
Quote:
(B19)
Adoption is a second or third best choice (IVF) for the adopters (usually). They wanted their own children, not adoptive substitutes - with rare exceptions.

Adoption began in the states to fill labour shortages - the terrible "orphan trains" - to use child labour free of charge. Then it became a means of social control and punishment of women who had children without marriage. And now it is used to solve the adult problem of infertility, though the romanticisation pretends that it is solely about the child's needs being filled by selfless parents. That is simply not reality, and it is not good for the mental health of the adopted child.]


I am certainly not in favor of using children as work slaves or to punish unmarried women who give birth. But using it to solve the problem of infertility actually seems like a good thing, better even than doing it to fulfill the child's needs. This from the linked article by somebody anonymous who knew the parents.

Quote:
(magazine article)
Initially, I think their intentions for adopting were "good" (although I am uncomfortable with the idea of adopting children solely because you are religiously motivated to "rescue" them). I don't think they adopted Hana and her brother so that they could have some children to torture and abuse. However,I believe they made a huge assumption that these kids would respond to their methods just like their own biological children did. They expected Hana and her little brother to assimilate into their family, and most likely ignored their culture, how they had grown up (customs, beliefs, etc), and most importantly, the trauma that Hana and her brother had gone through in their childhoods. These kids just weren't acting like their biological children. Instead of taking a step back and getting professional help, they decided that they would continue to follow the Pearl method, but continued to up the ante, because these kids were NOT succumbing to being "broken".



What I get from that is that adopting the child to fulfill the child's needs[which they assume to be 'rescue'] rather than to fulfill parental need to have a child to love can backfire horribly. If the prospective parent deeply feels that a child "needs" to be rescued and brought into a particular religion or way of life or just plain "needs" the family, that can backfire if the parent misreads what the child needs or is too bent on being "selfless". That theoretical selflessness could translate to abuse (did, in this case). The infertile couple who are rattling around feeling empty with just the two of them and want a child to raise up and give their lives meaning and company seem a less risky bet. They aren't rescuing the child. They are rescuing themselves and are more likely to have a mellower approach .



Last edited by Janissy on 07 May 2014, 4:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

babybird
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07 May 2014, 4:22 pm

There wouldn't be so many children in the care system in the first place if it wasn't for unreliable, neglectful or abusive biological parents.

Adoption might be the one and only chance for some children to have a relatively normal life.


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B19
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07 May 2014, 4:30 pm

I can see what you mean, babybird, but adoption isn't "normal". Like people on the spectrum, adopted people are regarded as different by the great body of society - because adoption isn't normal, it's a social/political construct.

Any significant difference puts people into an "outgroup" as far as the mainstream NT society is concerned.
And being in an outgroup means you are far more likely to suffer from discrimination, stigma, prejudice. This is as true for adopted people as for ASD people - and other differences.



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07 May 2014, 4:47 pm

My own adoption did break down and I ended up going from home to home.

In my case it was actually true that my adoptive parents didn't have the capacity to look after me.

I can't really blame anyone because it was a long time ago. They weren't bad people, they were just people.

It would be nice to think that children these days are matched well enough with parents, so that the after effects are minimalised.


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07 May 2014, 5:00 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
^Fine. Want to know why? I can't write a decent story about it.

about.

Statistics can be bought. A harsh truth about adoptive parents that no one wants to admit is that they didn't adopt for any altruistic motive. They're in it for their own agenda.


Silliest thing I ever head.

Birthparents sire kids 'for their own agenda' as well ( except when its by accident)!

Whats your point?



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07 May 2014, 5:02 pm

I never felt any stigma from being adopted,maybe because family adopted me.
If it wasn't for their patience,kindness,and love,my early life would have been hell.I owe them the few good things about me,they had patience,they never made me feel bad about myself,they encouraged my interests,they bought me books and art supplies,musical instruments,anything that a child needs to thrive.They are happy childhood memories.


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B19
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07 May 2014, 5:11 pm

yes, blood, identity, historical genealogy and kinship ties were maintained for you, and that's normative. Stigma bypass in that instance.



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07 May 2014, 5:34 pm

My second cousin was adopted,no blood ties.No one treated him any differently,he attends reunions and has been very active on researching a family history that is not his.I think maybe it depends on the bond,the child,and how open minded the extended family is.


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07 May 2014, 8:23 pm

You know, for the sake of argument, if were an adoptee, I would have nothing but contempt for the fakes that raised me.


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07 May 2014, 8:40 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
You know, for the sake of argument, if were an adoptee, I would have nothing but contempt for the fakes that raised me.

Back to THIS again. :roll:
You mean if a couple had adopted you out of a child services home and gave you a real home and looked after you as if you were their biological child you'd have contempt for them for that reason alone???


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07 May 2014, 8:45 pm

It doesn't matter if I was adopted at birth or from foster care. They're not in it for me, but for themselves. Under the right set of circumstances, they'd kill me for inconveniencing them.


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07 May 2014, 9:11 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
It doesn't matter if I was adopted at birth or from foster care.

Most of them seem to prefer to adopt one hot off the press and not one that's got some milage. I'd give extra points to a couple for adopting a used model over a new one since I see that as more selfless.
Some adoptive parents already have kids and adopt one, too.

Quote:
They're not in it for me, but for themselves.

Hardly. It's mutually beneficial for both parties in most all cases.

Quote:
Under the right set of circumstances, they'd kill me for inconveniencing them.

That's paranoia, there.
I'd be much more inclined to believe more biological parents kill their kids for inconveniencing them than adoptive ones. ANY fertile male and female can have kids and not want them or even be mentally or financially capable of taking care of them.
My parents had kids because they thought it was the thing to do, not that they really wanted us or were mentally prepared for the challenges of child rearing. I see that a lot. On the other hand, I've never known adoptive parents to be anything less than attentive to the well being of their kids.

Just what exactly have you experienced or observed that gives you impression that adoptive parents are self serving dirt bags? I'm sure others are also curious as to how you arrived at this anti-adoption obsession.


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07 May 2014, 11:31 pm

It is obvious that the sole purpose of Giftorcurse in this thread is to denigrate adoptive parents by any means necessary, and that he is completely disregarding any claims by other posters that do not support his conclusions.

Thread locked.