Is there "good" without God?

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I disagree. Torturing babies is wrong whether god says so or not.

You shouldn't need to rely on a higher power to be the reason you don't rape/murder/torture. If god is the only thing preventing you from doing this, then perhaps communicating with a mental health professional would be more effective than communicating with god.

Jumping in late here.

Can there be "good" without "God?"

Yes...but it would be relativistic.

I don't know if there is any single example of a man-made "absolute" observed across every culture.

"Good" must be defined by something that cannot change. Otherwise, "good" is a matter of interpretation and not comparison to a standard.

"God," whether real or invented, provides an absolute for moral guidance.

Magnetic north would be meaningless if it varied wildly from day to day. It's its relative constancy that allows people to effectively navigate by using it as a reference.

Well..in hopes of keeping my point here on topic..

and in hopes of the understanding that ALL autistic folks don't

always express themselves like the rest of the 'herd'...

This video illustrates the truth about GOD 'fairly' well..

i think.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk[/youtube]

Humans with all their complex language..collective intelligence..and complex
cultures...

Are the only animals ignorant enough to question...

whether or not the Power of ALL THAT IS..IS FAIR...

OR THIS THING THAT MANY PEOPLE THROUGHOUT

HISTORY HAVE DESCRIBED AS THE GOD FORCE...

(UPPER CASE EFFECT HERE FOR AMPLIFCATION OF POINT..I AIN'T yelling by the way)

GOD AIN'T FAIR IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT...

At least not in one lifetime..there is plenty of documented scientific evidence about that...

as negative stuff happens in life..no matter what..a person does....

But the point is GOD is both negative and positive..energy..

That in whole..makes this whole thing..called reality happen...

One does not work without the other...

Too much evidence in science..to really question ..this. i think...

So good and bad..is just a human creation..an abstract construct..

IT has NO basis..in TRUE REALITY...

IT'S' A WOLF EAT LAMB WORLD...

AND ALWAYS WILL BE....

AS THAT IS THE WAY..GOD WORKS...

in just my opinion..if i will be allowed to present it
in this form of human communication expression....

LANGUAGE..COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE..AND CULTURE ALSO presents the POTENTIAL ability to
CURB The human animal instinct..for killing...AND treating the lesser greater...

That's the beauty of stuff like Christianity...

And in a way..is what make humans their own creators...

or even GOD

If ya wanna use that abstract concept....that humans create..2....

to do their best to try to describe what is
IS...

can't reAlly blame 'em for that..
yes we can..and in my opinion...

that is SIMPLY sad.

First off everyone can agree it's wrong, anyone with a conscience. My question is, did God actually ever say it was wrong?

i look to nature for these answers..

Torture is a relative term..in total existence...

Animals will kill their deformed babies..to keep resources going for the greater good of the litter..or whatever their brood may be called...

There is at least one part of the answer tHere.. i think...

But there are usually no COMPLETE answers..i think...

It is relative..to one's perception and experience of life...

IN my opinion..my child who was born with multiple congenital anomalies...

Was tortured by the HUMAN law..AS IT STOOD THEN..and medical science...

By forcing the misery ... of living a life..that with only nature...

He would have never experienced...

Humans create a lot of HUMAN hell..and a lot OF HUMAN heaven...

For those that are in one or the other..

It is simply fortune wHere one or another may exist...IN THIS LIFE.

My child lived in HUMAN hell in his 51 day stay on this planet..propagated by HUMAN LAWS..medical science...

I live in heaven..i know i am fortunate..and thank technology for it..as well as what i understand as the

fuller power that IS GOD...

BUT AGAIN..IT AIN'T FAIR..

LOVE IT OR LOVE IT IS MY OVERALL OPINION...
ON GOD

I have a really bad head cold at the moment, so my memory isn't that great at bringing up specific names, but I recall one of the Apostles saying that even the pagans have the law imprinted on their hearts. So in other words: yes, unbelievers can know the difference between right and wrong.

And I am sure there were laws before Moses...

this is tangential to your exchange, and not in response to anyone in particular.

to say torturing babies is wrong seems to me a convoluted way of saying people tend to get really upset when you do that, and we prefer not to upset one another, or ourselves, if we can help it, at least in part because upset people tend to express their upset in ways that upset still more people (particularly the people they consider to be responsible). we agree to prefer to avoid actions that diminish the well-being of others. what more is there to it than that? do we need an action to be inherently undesirable for a moral code to work? is it helpful to treat the fact that we dislike something as an essential attribute of the object? if torturing babies turns out not to be inherently wrong, is there a realistic risk people will change their minds and decide that it's acceptable behavior? if god doesn't exist, does rancid crab meat still smell bad to me? could rancid crab meat be made to smell better by a compelling argument?

Are there preferences without God?
a.) YES! Rancid crab meat is inherently disgusting!
b.) NO! If God decided that rancid crab meat was a delectable treat it would be delicious!

I know this for sure there can be a god without good! Thankfully only the good exists and not the god!

One way to make torturing anyone or anything "right" in the eyes of the masses is just to say it is what a god requires and people used to do that. They called it sacrifice. They sacrificed humans and animals to God or various gods in temples all over the world. They rationalized their cruelty and blood lust this way.
"It is what God demands so it's the right thing to do."
This is the dark side of religion. It is much better to think freely imo.

Yes, and it is a fact that religious moral apologists like to ignore, Hammurabi set down a code which predates moses by several centuries and is remarkably similar although far more comprehensive than the ten commandments, it also avoids the demand for godly worship, surely religion would not have appropriated this, dumbed it down and added a religious element? its not like it has ever committed such an act before

It's the duty of every priest to keep their flock in line, that's why you see so much of God in the ten commandments.

the truth has a funny way of wanting to be whatever it is we already believe.

Well.. i have found my way to the CHI energy..kundalini energy..Christ Energy..DAO..QI..or whatever one chooses to describe this real human
higher power of energy....

And people in eastern countries have been practicing some form of TAI CHI for a reported 70 thousand years...

So no..it's certainly nothing new under the sun...

OH my god there are so many words to describe this higher potential of human beings..who tap into this energy..
to do amazing things..as I truly experience this now..

IT is no wonder that some folks thought that Jesus was GODLIKE in that time and place..

Where true enlightenment for simple bliss and peace in life..was so hard to find..

At least now the paths are almost all available...in MY GOD!..even YOUtube now..

That is great that the secrets are no longer hidden from potential sight of folks like the ones

that used to be so repressed in my area..without a hope of gaining insight from a distant time or place...

But as they say.. ya can even lead a horse to water..but one cannot make the horse drink the water...

There is incredible human energy..available to at least some human beings..through this power of 'whatever' that many

folks have qualified with an abstract three letter word concept..that IS shell of the word GOD...

It truly is nothing but imagination..without the power of GOD that is REAL incredible energy..

beyond any testosterone fueled workout..

OR adrenaline generated effort...

Been there done both of those other things..for too long..decades..not to clearly perceive the subtle differences...

IN this power..of what some folks describe as GOD..that can range ..from barely detectable...to almost an explosion of energy..that yes..can move the
proverbial mountain...and yes.. even more...

But without the TRUE experience of IT..i simply do not seeing it as existing..

at least that was the way i experienced the lack of it..

as opposed to overflowing fulfillment..

Of this thing that some folks describe as the POWER of GOD!

And i am still a scientist at heart..and as big a skeptic about GOD..as anyone here...before

I experienced this power..

I would not be promoting this truth..if i did not understand..it completely and scientifically per my own
unique measures of the scientific method ..to get the proof..that is enough for me...

But it is impossible really i think..to communicate this to another person that does not live in the energy..

It was certainly impossible for anyone to relate to me..before i experienced it...

There is incredible overall healing power...i have proof of that in the photos i have taken of myself..

since my sudden and yes..therapist stated miraculous remission/recovery from 19 medically documented disorders..

Almost overnight around July 22nd of last Summer...

This power that some folks describe as GOD IS real..there is nothing but 100% real life credible evidence..for me to believe anything else....

But again..i certainly do not expect to convince anyone of it..unless they have experienced..it....

I'm not much one for blind faith...i've always had the tendency toward positive thoughts...

But i have to have evidence before getting attached to any abstract concept in life...

I am not one to believe in any conspiracy theory..and the placebo effect or hypnosis ..does not even work on me....

Morality has no base. For the most part I believe that it mainly exists in instinct. People turn to things like God when they want an exact idea of what's good and what's bad. It's not the best to follow IMO and history has shown that. If you feel that something is bad or wrong, don't trust God, trust your gut.

This is why philosophy is so important.