Plight of a moderate Muslim
but i guess it's like a math problem...you have to analyze your work to know what's wrong with it.
Define free thinking (who is enslaving our thoughts? Perhasp it is our emotions).
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You are like children playing in the market-place saying, "We piped for you and you would not dance, we wailed a dirge for you and you would not weep."
It's quite simple, Allah, the Muslim deity. Is usually described with "flame" imagery and personality (Vengeful, Quick to Punish) and the Christian deity Yahweh usually uses "light" imagery and personality (Hypocrisy, Extreme Dualism) The Judaic deity is more so "Stone" themed (Quiet, Earthy, Non-Judgemental) probably as a consequence of exposure to Babylonian deities.
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How good music and bad reasons sound when one marches against an enemy!
I am not sure that your arguments can be sustained. God is a God of both Mercy and Justice in both testaments and in the Qur'an. Were you referring rather to modern Muslim, Christian and Jewish views of God? Too much diversity within any of those faiths for it to be a fair comment. If anything, the Muslim deity seems readier to forgive without requiring the Old Testament sin offerings or the Crucifixion of His Son (I am not attacking Jews or fellow Christians here - in the case of the former it would be a redundant attack since such sacrifices have not been made since 70 AD - destruction of second Temple in Jerusalem - a rabbinic tradition succeeding of repentance being sufficient for forgiveness - it was required before as well, of course: Isaiah, Amos and other prophets were quite stern about sacrifices and other rituals unaccompanied by an amendment of life in terms of moral conduct and attitudes - not dissimilar to Christianity: conversely formalism or works-based theology amongst Christians - distinct tendencies - are hardly unprecedented trends).
On what basis are the Babylonian deities non-judgemental? Some (though certainly not all; Ea seems fairly decent upon the whole) of them might be described as immoral, as might some (though again not all) of the Greek or Norse deities; that is hardly the same thing as being non-moralising/non-judgemental. Non moralising perhaps (in some instances); there is plenty of judgement in Mesopotamian mythology (apologies if term offends worshippers of Marduk, Ea, Adapa or Ishtar et alia)! Read your sources more carefully, Flagg. I am sure that you have read a number of sources, but in isolation fragments of texts can be used to justify practically any position. I realise Mesopotamian mythology encompasses rather more than Babylonian, though.
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You are like children playing in the market-place saying, "We piped for you and you would not dance, we wailed a dirge for you and you would not weep."
Last edited by AlexandertheSolitary on 25 Feb 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Give me some quotations from Jewish, Christian and Islamic writings (Talmud, patristic works and Hadith accepted here as well as canonical scriptures of the three faiths already mentioned, ie Tanakh, New Testament and Qur'an, as well as anything more recent) to support your interesting hypothesis, Flagg. Do not just generalise randomly (sorry if that last bit was a little harsh).
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You are like children playing in the market-place saying, "We piped for you and you would not dance, we wailed a dirge for you and you would not weep."
The moderate was told by them Iman he is anti-Islamic, because he is. A moslem advocating friendship with Christians and Jews is anti-islamic.
The Koran is the word of Allah and as such is not open to interpretation. The Koran is the infallible word of god, a transcript of a tablet preserved in heaven, revealed to the prophet muhammad by the angel gabriel. Except for a few short passages, the speaker throughout is god. Any attempt to put any (moderate or otherwise) interpretation is anti-islamic.
It is said more than once "Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from god". ... "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths but greater is the hatred that their brests conceal".
This is the word of Allah! Allah be praised!
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
The Koran, Chapter 29, verse 46 reads "And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit."
("Followers of the Book" = Christians and Jews)
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"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." -- Emo Philips
The Koran is the word of Allah and as such is not open to interpretation. The Koran is the infallible word of god, a transcript of a tablet preserved in heaven, revealed to the prophet muhammad by the angel gabriel. Except for a few short passages, the speaker throughout is god. Any attempt to put any (moderate or otherwise) interpretation is anti-islamic.
It is said more than once "Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from god". ... "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths but greater is the hatred that their breasts conceal".
This is the word of Allah! Allah be praised!
What of the tradition of Itjihad? To ask for the meaning of a passage would not necessarily require a Muslim doubting the divine inspiration of the Koran/Qur'an. And if no interpretations are allowed no use of the Qur'an as a guide for moral behaviour in changing circumstances would be permitted. Also technically only the Arabic version is the Qur'an in Islamic doctrine: ALL translations are interpretations in which some meaning is filtered. In reply to your point about not fraternising with infidels, what about the "nearest in affection" passage about Christians (yes I know it comes after an incredibly anti-Jewish and anti-pagan verse, which I cannot condone).
And what about the doctrine of abrogation?
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You are like children playing in the market-place saying, "We piped for you and you would not dance, we wailed a dirge for you and you would not weep."
as I understand, that is correct.
The Bible is written by people who recounted what they heard Jesus say or saw what he did. It is their words in the context of their times. We can ponder what they meant and interpret them differently for changing times and circumstances. The Koran however is the "infallible word of god", transcribed from tablets preserved in heaven.
Further, I do not believe my God is the same as the Islamic god. My God exhorts me to love my enemies and turn the other cheek. (which is something I am not always good at - lol)
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
Perhaps you are free to speak as you do. I live in Louisiana, if I was to express that I would interpret what Jesus meant, it would be the same as it was in Europe, lynching, burning at the stake. For the Bible is the word of God.
If I went into a church and said the Religious right is made up of poor whites, KKK, David Duke, now govenrnment pardoned Social Conservative, and that their votes, and oil company money, have been murdering people in a fake war, in Irak, and that they have done so because they want this to be a religious war, where Social Conservatives Klan, Dukes Nazis, will create a Religious State, discard the Constitution, and establish white rule, at the least, I would be asked to leave.
AS my Islamic friends have pointed out, the Koran does not change to fit politics. Through great effort and hard work they got here legally, learned the language, have studied the history and form of government. I have coached them for the test, and I had to look up the answers. If all Americans had to take the test, most would have to leave. It takes seven years of being employed, paying taxes, keeping out of trouble, to take the test.
They came because our ideals do spread a light over the world. They left everything for life under laws, not men, equal justice for all, that no man shall be deprived of life, liberty, or the persuit of happiness, except by proper action of the laws, courts, ect. They all come from places where being taken away and being locked up, without charge, without trial, lawyers, or any contact, was the normal life.
They were shocked that the man who swore on his oath of office to protect and defend the Constituion, against all enemies, foreign and domestic, would dare alter it. That people could detained without trial or charge, that government snooping, where there was no evidence of a crime, became tolerated, as confettii from the Constitution comes out of White House windows, making a place for a Theocracy, with a leader who has mentioned God more times that all prior presidents combined. What shocked them most, we did not rise as one and defend our freedoms.
That we hold these truths to be self evident, truths that men have died for over for two hundred years, are being dishonored, and replaced by Jesus babble. Why, because TERRORISTS, AND ONLY MY GOD CAN SAVE YOU.
What terrorists? Look around, China pushed the white devil out, Viet Nam, India, Africa, South and Central America, all since WWII. Are they racist? Terrorist? Or did they just want to rule themselves?
You Great White Bawanas of the White Jesus, Black Book of Magic, and your religopsyco babble about the white mans burden, what's that, stripping the planet? You complain about hauling the loot away, what lazy looters, you want it delivered? You can not even keep freedom at home, much less spread it.
The New Testament was written 100 to 150 years after the alleged incident. People wrote then, but no one took notes? Greatest event of all time was written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, over a century later? And no one has any idea who they are?
Wait, I just remembered, it was at the Battle of Gettysburg, God reached down his hand and raised his only child from the dead, after he stopped five cannon balls, and with 200,000 watching, gave everyone beer and sausages, then they went back to fighting, but I thought I should mention it now.
Alexander the Great died at 33, pierced through the breast, Mani and a hundred others had a Virgin mother. The Bible is Sumarian, Noah and the flood, several others, the Ras Sharam text, To Baal, make up most of it, his name scratched out, and replaced with a tribal god. The Ten Commandments come from the 125 Chapter of the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Your religion is Plagiarism!
Islam is a social system, and nothing matched it till Bismark in 1870, Islam educated Europe in Andulusia. Fibbernachi brought arabic numerals and Algebra from the University at Bougie, Adam Smith learned from Ibn Khaldun, Christians burned all of the works of the Greeks and Romans, Islam gave them back 1000 years later.
When I told Islamic people that I only worship the Universe, as the Temple built by a force unimaginable, yet perfect and exact, unknowable, but Supreme. they said, yes, that is the one, the only, our beginning and our end.
"He who gives up esential liberty, for tempory security, will get neither." Ben Franklin
but i guess it's like a math problem...you have to analyze your work to know what's wrong with it.
Define free thinking (who is enslaving our thoughts? Perhasp it is our emotions).
i mean no people saying sinful thoughts are sins. or defining morality by what the status of technology was back in about 500BC
that's pretty much what I said.
I don't believe I made any value judgements or wild criticisms or the like, just pointing out facts as I understand them. (I may have been a little sarcastic saying "Allah be praised").
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!