Christian Marriage is a lifelong 1m1w covenant
adifferentname wrote:
I'll bite.
Okay, go ahead and provide me with a rough list of your political principles if you'd like to bite. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? What do you agree with in the Declaration of Independence?
Quote:
What evidence do you have that supports your assertion that any specific laws were religious in origin. Which specific religion do you claim as the origin for said laws? We've seen the ethical stance of religions evolve in line with, and in response to, societal ethics. I argue that religion is a by-product of civilisation, not the cause of it. The ethics of religious groups broadly reflect society, not the other way around - though there's arguably some seepage in both directions.
An example of a society which has no history of religion or faith can be found in the Pirahã:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/n ... ett-amazon
An example of a society which has no history of religion or faith can be found in the Pirahã:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/n ... ett-amazon
My evidence is that there are a mountain of instances where religion was in the conversation. You're right that it isn't as simple as "religion informs societal ethics", but there is a tug and pull between the two, areas where there has been harmony and areas where there has been disagreement. So saying that there is a religious basis for modern and secular political ideas in no way is a statement that there is a one way relationship.
As for a specific piece of evidence, see Seward's "higher doctrine" speeches and debates, or Plato's Republic in which he uses his model of the soul to build a picture of his ideal society that is run by "philosopher-kings". During the Renaissance and Enlightenment eras Plato's Republic had big impact on people's political ideas. Consider also Hobbes, Locke, and Roussea's numerous references to Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, Epictetus' Golden Sayings, Luther, Erasmus, Aquinas (his summa theologia and summa contra gentiles), and the Bible amongst other philosophical and/or theological sources. Think of Hobbes Leviathan and the "divine right of kings". Every major area of human thinking has been in interaction since society started, and supposing that one whole area has no place in it is a fascistic stifling of the people's democratic rights to express their own opinions in law.
_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib
Last edited by Lukecash12 on 01 Jul 2015, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pcuser wrote:
If I said to you that I believed in and could prove the existence of unicorns, would you bother to debate it or rightly dismiss it out of hand? Crazy people don't make rational statements. They spout nonsense. Religion is nonsense made up by fearful people of the past to control others. It deserves no more than that to counter it. I'm not going to waste time researching and posting something that wouldn't prove anything. That is the point, I guess. You have spent your life researching to prove that nonsense. I'll not rise to that bait. When a hypothesis that can't be proven true or false is presented, it's not considered worthy of discussion. The only exception is in math, where in any given consistent system, you will have statements that can be neither proven or falsify. Fermat's last theorem was thought by many to be one of these statements until someone sat down for seven years and finally proved it to be true. It's a little mind bending, but math and physics can do that to you...
Once again we have a string of nothing but bald assertions. Religion has been considered worthy of discussion by the majority of people in the world for thousands of years, up to this day. It's status isn't even remotely near that of unicorns.
And I'll ask once again to see if you have even a shred of intellectual honesty, humility, and candor: can you address the glaring inconsistencies that I not only pointed out once but quoted yet again? I will take a lack of response to that, the most important part of this post and those, and the continuance of bald assertions that don't address a single one of my points, as a clear concession that you are either unable or unwilling to deal with the inconsistencies in your own thinking. Either step up to the epistemological plate or admit by your absence of a response that your reasoning has no more justification than the reasoning that you ridicule.
_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib
Lukecash12 wrote:
Okay, go ahead and provide me with a rough list of your political principles if you'd like to bite. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? What do you agree with in the Declaration of Independence?
My "political principles" are not the subject under discussion, nor are they relevant. I'm reasonably certain that the Bill of Rights exists. My interest in the Declaration of Indepedence is purely academic as I am not a US citizen.
Quote:
My evidence is that there are a mountain of instances where religion was in the conversation.
Cite some.
Quote:
You're right that it isn't as simple as "religion informs societal ethics", but there is a tug and pull between the two, areas where there has been harmony and areas where there has been disagreement. So saying that there is a religious basis for modern and secular political ideas in no way is a statement that there is a one way relationship.
And yet you stated that "whole host of laws" were "religious in origin". Their origin was in civilisation, of which religion is only a single cog. It is my opinion that religion and gods are inventions of man, a by-product of the pre-existing values that were necessary for the survival and proliferation of an evolving social mammal. The inherent flaws in all religions are perhaps the best evidence we have for this. I think its incredibly naive to believe in a "perfect" being who is incapable of providing perfect evidence of their own existence, preferring instead to play a centuries long game of Chinese Whispers via hundreds of translations by flawed mortals.
Quote:
As for a specific piece of evidence, see Seward's "higher doctrine" speeches and debates, or Plato's Republic in which he uses his model of the soul to build a picture of his ideal society that is run by "philosopher-kings". During the Renaissance and Enlightenment eras Plato's Republic had big impact on people's political ideas.
So you're arguing for ethical principles that are completely removed from the Abrahamic "God". Plato's arguments for the existence of the gods basically amounted to:
Someone must have made all of this.
Most people believe in the gods, so we should all believe in the gods.
His was an argument from ignorance coupled with an appeal to authority and popularity.
Quote:
Consider also Hobbes, Locke, and Roussea's numerous references to Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, Epictetus' Golden Sayings, Martin Luther, and the Bible amongst other philosophical and/or theological sources.
If you have specific, pertinent evidence you wish to present from the writings of any of the above, post them here. If I wanted a list of reading recommendations I would have requested one. I'd also appreciate responses to the points I made, rather than clumsy deflections and a demand that I provide my political credentials. Am I to assume that you are in favour of the stoning of blasphemers and the burning of witches?
Lintar wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am not homophobic but it's true two women or men together without a contribution of sorts from the opposite sex cannot produce a zygote and thus cannot procreate by themselves.
Why would stating the blindingly obvious make you "homophobic"?
Because it can sound like homophobia but I do not mean it to sound that way. What you read in the Bible was written before in vitro fertilization and sperm donors. These fundies need to understand the world has changed since Bible times. A woman can reproduce without even having sex and it's not about immaculate conception.
Lintar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The lines are being drawn, people; on which side do you stand?
Why must we take a side? I choose not to.
Apparently this is no longer acceptable in the modern world of identity politics. If you're not actively supporting a side, you're considered an enemy.
The world has gone to Sith.
adifferentname wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The lines are being drawn, people; on which side do you stand?
Why must we take a side? I choose not to.
Apparently this is no longer acceptable in the modern world of identity politics. If you're not actively supporting a side, you're considered an enemy.
The world has gone to Sith.
I wonder which politician is the in cognito Sith Lord?
adifferentname wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The lines are being drawn, people; on which side do you stand?
Why must we take a side? I choose not to.
Apparently this is no longer acceptable in the modern world of identity politics. If you're not actively supporting a side, you're considered an enemy.
The world has gone to Sith.
"Identity politics"?! Well, then in that case, fine - if they are going to be so unbearably unreasonable, then I will choose to oppose "gay marriage"!
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The lines are being drawn, people; on which side do you stand?
Why must we take a side? I choose not to.
Apparently this is no longer acceptable in the modern world of identity politics. If you're not actively supporting a side, you're considered an enemy.
The world has gone to Sith.
I wonder which politician is the in cognito Sith Lord?
Donald Trump.
Lintar wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The lines are being drawn, people; on which side do you stand?
Why must we take a side? I choose not to.
Apparently this is no longer acceptable in the modern world of identity politics. If you're not actively supporting a side, you're considered an enemy.
The world has gone to Sith.
I wonder which politician is the in cognito Sith Lord?
Donald Trump.
I see Trump in more of a Jabba the Hutt type role. I've pegged the Clintons as the most likely candidates for Sith duo - but don't ask me which is master and which apprentice.
Lintar wrote:
"Identity politics"?! Well, then in that case, fine - if they are going to be so unbearably unreasonable, then I will choose to oppose "gay marriage"!
If you really want to confuse them, argue for "gay marriage", but only between two heterosexual men or women.
Lukecash12 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Then why is the bible their go-to justfication for anything and everything?
And how does one determine which parts should be ignored?
And how does one determine which parts should be ignored?
There is a whole academic area of study pertaining to what is called hermeneutics. That is how people arrive at rigorous, instead of arbitrary standards, for interpreting religious texts. Here are some example of primary considerations in hermeneutics:
1. Setting.
2. Author.
3. Audience.
4. Linguistics.
5. Exegesis vs eisegesis. You can see the wiki entries on these two terms for a rudimentary description.
Oftentimes less rigorous theologians, or lay persons, look at scriptural passages that seem to contradict each other, and instead of using critical thinking to assess it with a methodological checklist like I've given, they arbitrarily decide which passages they like better or they use overlying theological ideas to bluster over those neglected passages. A rigorous hermeneutic sets out, instead, to understand such passages in light of each other, and one of the main noticeable differences is that a rigorous hermeneutic especially takes into account the audience of a text.
Also, just like literature today we must take into account that there were literary genres and many different forms of expression. In order to understand literary genres and forms we must take stock of contemporary examples, such as extra-biblical Hebrew parables, personal letters and instructional letters given by people who spoke Koine Greek, etc.
As I have said a number of times so far here on WP, the bible has been grossly oversimplified and modern references to it are often saturated with anachronisms. Popular representations of Christianity are almost totally irrespective of the process of biblical interpretation demonstrated in academic Christianity.
Is there a preponderance of consensus in this field?
Perhaps a canonical list of laws that are considered obsolete?
No law has any bearing on salvation, and the NT is considered the primary tool for determining which ethical ideas of the OT are relevant today. It must also be noted that there are ethical instructions that the NT didn't address, and as such they still stand. But if you read Romans it is clear that God's ethical instructions in the penal justice system are prescriptions, and by that I mean that they are not requirements but instructions that are there for our benefit. The scriptures are explicit when they say that the only unpardonable sin is "blaspheming the holy spirit" (which means not accepting a relationship with God). His instructions are for our pleasure, not for us to hate ourselves and others.
There are also numerous references in the OT too, that the Law wasn't adequate for the situation, and ritualizing good behavior and learning it by rote does not make us right with God. It is our love for Him that makes us right with Him. As much as God punishes the Hebrew nation in order to set it right, He also forgives them numerous times and through His prophets gives numerous references to a better and more final justice system: the satisfactory justice system.
As for a consensus: most Reformed theologians agree with this notion of the free gift of grace. Some older order Churches and it's theologians, such as Roman Catholicism, believe for instance that performing a work is an example of accepting grace and we must continually accept grace. They also believe that there are cardinal (grave) and venial (acceptable) sins, so we must confess our sins to a priest and do appropriate penance. In any case the great majority of Christendom agrees that there is only one unforgivable sin, and there has been a landslide of scholarly material as of late against any concept of grace that doesn't agree that it is a free gift.
I happen to be a nondenominational Christian myself and would very much like to share my own understanding of grace if you are interested. I believe there is something in the Bible called "radical grace" and have spent the last ten years of my theological career at EPS and St. Anselm's establishing the concept with numerous language studies. My main academic bent on theological issues has been that I've prioritized anthropology and historical methodology over using preconceived theological notions to conform seemingly disparate texts to my own understanding.
So, the answer is no, or that the question is not applicable. or something.
I'm an atheist so it's all angels dancing on the head of a pin to me.
But it vexes me that so many of the faithful will cherry pick from the bible in order to condemn whatever behavior they don't like, generally for no other reason than that someone taught them that they should dislike it, and an old book.
As you've seen i understand where a lot of the OT rules came from with regard to criminalizing competing faiths, and with regard to a desire to assure the continuance of a family line in an era with some pretty extreme mortality rates, particularly when wandering the desert. And the avoidance of parasites and other sources of disease that are hardly a concern in a modern civilization.
Flying insects with four legs though? Insects have six legs.
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