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Dillogic
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24 Feb 2016, 3:05 am

How is it "racism"?

Racism means you think certain races are superior over others and/or poor treatment of people based solely on their race.

Using their argument, it's racism to wear or use say, anything made, invented and/or designed from another culture, which is something we all would do. More than likely daily.



OliveOilMom
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24 Feb 2016, 5:43 am

Oh for the love of God. Kimonos are pretty. People wear kimonos. They originated in Japan. How the hell is this racist?

If you expect every Japanese lady you meet to walk around the house in a kimono, or think that she is a geisha, that is racist. Trying on a kimono and posing by a pretty painting is not.


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androbot01
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24 Feb 2016, 10:23 am

I think the blending of cultures is unstoppable. Everyone is mixing things up. I think that's a good thing. Take the best that each culture has to offer and build something bigger and stronger.

And kimonos are pretty. It's good to see your post OOM.



naturalplastic
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24 Feb 2016, 10:24 am

beneficii wrote:
From The Japan Times:

Quote:
Sadly, those trying to modernize the kimono by ushering it into the fashion world — rather than preserving it strictly as a national dress — will likely be set back by the controversy surrounding the exhibition in Boston. One of those is Hiromi Asai, a kimono designer who is running a Kickstarter campaign to raise $50,000 by July 31 to hold a show at New York Fashion Week next February to show that the kimono can be a modern form of dress that “is beyond cultural and ethnic boundaries.”

Okazaki is also concerned that the industry will suffer if Americans are scared to wear kimono lest they are accused of being racist.

“Absolutely no one (interviewed for the book) found Westerners wearing kimonos to be remotely offensive,” Okazaki tells The Japan Times. “(They) all gave me interviews because they wanted people overseas to share this culture.”


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/201 ... atTz7XU1kr

My observations:

1.) None of those protesting the exhibit, as reported in the OP, had a Japanese name. Other reports of the event revealed additional protestors, but still none had a Japanese name.

2.) On the Japanese internet, there was some criticism of white people degrading foreign cultures, but most seemed put off by the exhibit being shut down. There were a few who took a conspiratorial tone, alleging that shutting down this exhibit was a plot by people of Chinese and Korean extraction to "be a nuisance" to Japan.


Well...there ya go.

you're telling us that Japanese themselves dont give a toss about this issue. So why are you asking us to care about it?



beneficii
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24 Feb 2016, 11:30 am

naturalplastic,

Actually, many of the Japanese diaspora did have a problem with the way the MFA handled the event. If you listened to or read the transcript of the panel discussion I posted, then you would see what their problems were.


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AR15000
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24 Feb 2016, 12:38 pm

beneficii wrote:
naturalplastic,

Actually, many of the Japanese diaspora did have a problem with the way the MFA handled the event. If you listened to or read the transcript of the panel discussion I posted, then you would see what their problems were.



This exhibit is hardly an example of cultural appropriation. And I wonder how Asian Americans would respond if the Boston MFA did a similar exhibit of Mongolian culture and costumes! Most likely PC Asian Americans wouldn't give a damn because not only are there very few Mongolian Americans but Mongolia is looked down upon by its East Asian neighbours.



beneficii
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24 Feb 2016, 12:48 pm

AR15000 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
naturalplastic,

Actually, many of the Japanese diaspora did have a problem with the way the MFA handled the event. If you listened to or read the transcript of the panel discussion I posted, then you would see what their problems were.



This exhibit is hardly an example of cultural appropriation. And I wonder how Asian Americans would respond if the Boston MFA did a similar exhibit of Mongolian culture and costumes! Most likely PC Asian Americans wouldn't give a damn because not only are there very few Mongolian Americans but Mongolia is looked down upon by its East Asian neighbours.


Have you looked at that transcript?


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24 Feb 2016, 1:26 pm

Seems like all it was was a ploy to get people interested in art, and to be motivated to interact with the art, instead of just looking and thinking "That's nice."

I think that they went about it the wrong way, and I don't mean because they unintentionally offended people. It's just a silly concept. I doubt anyone came away from it with more of an appreciation for Monet.

My Italian heritage is mocked and oversimplified in American culture all the time, but I don't get all worked up over it. The stereotype of the fat mustachioed Italian chef going "mamma mia!" and going around baking pizzas is everywhere. And what about "Super Mario Bros."? That's a stereotype used by the Japanese to create a successful videogame franchise. Stereotypical fat Italian plumber with a mustache and heavy accent. It's stupid. And of course there's all the obsession over the Italian mafia, and many people seem to assume that all Italian-Americans are low-class and somehow involved in organized crime.

Yet I don't throw a fit every time there's some dumb pizza commercial featuring some Italian stereotype.



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24 Feb 2016, 1:32 pm

The problem with so many people these days is that they cannot differentiate between "Cultural appropriation" and genuine appreciation of other people's cultures.


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Suumsuique
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24 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

Fugu wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well yeah what is racist about it? What about it implies 'people who put on this kimono and/or view this exibit view themselves as racially superior to the Japanese and are doing it to show hate of their inferiors.' It is not even clear what was offensive specifically in any articles/comments I've seen about it.
probably because it turns japanese culture into a carnival attraction

Ever heard of oriental tourists that photograph everything as if the whole country is a museum?
Ill never understand why people are so easily offended, as if its a sport.



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24 Feb 2016, 2:05 pm

Suumsuique wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well yeah what is racist about it? What about it implies 'people who put on this kimono and/or view this exibit view themselves as racially superior to the Japanese and are doing it to show hate of their inferiors.' It is not even clear what was offensive specifically in any articles/comments I've seen about it.
probably because it turns japanese culture into a carnival attraction

Ever heard of oriental tourists that photograph everything as if the whole country is a museum?
Ill never understand why people are so easily offended, as if its a sport.


Don't virtually all tourists act that way when visiting other countries?


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naturalplastic
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24 Feb 2016, 2:12 pm

PhoenixFalcon wrote:
Suumsuique wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well yeah what is racist about it? What about it implies 'people who put on this kimono and/or view this exibit view themselves as racially superior to the Japanese and are doing it to show hate of their inferiors.' It is not even clear what was offensive specifically in any articles/comments I've seen about it.
probably because it turns japanese culture into a carnival attraction

Ever heard of oriental tourists that photograph everything as if the whole country is a museum?
Ill never understand why people are so easily offended, as if its a sport.


Don't virtually all tourists act that way when visiting other countries?


And thats kinda that person's point.



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24 Feb 2016, 6:25 pm

Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no such thing as cultural appropriation, you don't own culture and you're not entitled to be able to segregate yourself and your culture. If you think kimonos are racist then I hope you're not using a computer, wearing jeans, eat cheeseburgers, or celebrate Thanksgiving. How is right to segregate yourself then invade our culture?
there's a difference between cultural appropriation and turning cultural art into a sideshow, the latter is what the museum did.



Cultural appropriation is what is unacceptable. And turning cultural art into a sideshow isn't what they did whatsoever. If you want an example of cultural appropriation,

Exhibit A:

Image


Exhibit B:

Image




I love it how people equivocate culture with ethnicity and cry "racism" when you imitate the culture of people who aren't the same race as you are. If for example, the Boston MFA had Ushanka sunday's were people could try on those famous mink fur Russian hats and fur coats would that be called out as "racist"? I don't think so! I see plenty of Americans wearing Ushankas in the winter and no cries of racism or cultural appropriation from the PC crowd.


I think the bottom line is that there is no universal agreement on the concept of cultural property rights. Japan has been actively exporting its culture to the West for decades and there is so much cross-cultural influence between Japan and the USA that this is just plain stupid.



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24 Feb 2016, 6:51 pm

I wonder if the Museum didn't fail in its duty to present art in context and to deal with whatever objections may arise.

The "Japon Art" movement in Impressionism is what came to mind when I saw 'kimonos' and 'Impressionism.' But no, it's not mentioned by the Museum as it should be. The obvious differences between the two forms of art, as well as their attraction, certainly should have been addressed.

Well, Boston MFA did explain it so I'll do my best:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonaiserie_(Van_Gogh)/

Given that Boston MFA is exhibiting Van Gogh, wasn't there a natural tendency to pair these influences? Badly explained, that's what it is.

p.s. I know Vincent wasn't an Impressionist, but he was close enough in method and time and geography. I recall that Monet worked with Japonaiserie too but I don't find copies.



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24 Feb 2016, 8:03 pm

AR15000 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no such thing as cultural appropriation, you don't own culture and you're not entitled to be able to segregate yourself and your culture. If you think kimonos are racist then I hope you're not using a computer, wearing jeans, eat cheeseburgers, or celebrate Thanksgiving. How is right to segregate yourself then invade our culture?
there's a difference between cultural appropriation and turning cultural art into a sideshow, the latter is what the museum did.



Cultural appropriation is what is unacceptable. And turning cultural art into a sideshow isn't what they did whatsoever. If you want an example of cultural appropriation,

Exhibit A:

Image


Exhibit B:

Image




I love it how people equivocate culture with ethnicity and cry "racism" when you imitate the culture of people who aren't the same race as you are. If for example, the Boston MFA had Ushanka sunday's were people could try on those famous mink fur Russian hats and fur coats would that be called out as "racist"? I don't think so! I see plenty of Americans wearing Ushankas in the winter and no cries of racism or cultural appropriation from the PC crowd.


I think the bottom line is that there is no universal agreement on the concept of cultural property rights. Japan has been actively exporting its culture to the West for decades and there is so much cross-cultural influence between Japan and the USA that this is just plain stupid.


If cultural appropriation is a thing, then why does the rest of the world get to enjoy the fruits of our labor? Go to Japan right now and I guarantee you'll probably see more blue jeans and baseball caps than you will kimonos and whatever else. It's just a nonsense concept, if something is offensive and totally insensitive its one thing but just being of another culture is not it. It's segregationist, this is what RACISTS want.



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24 Feb 2016, 8:54 pm

beneficii wrote:
This video has a pretty good look on the issues Asian-Americans (including Japanese-Americans) deal with, compared to Japanese in Japan, and the divide between them over this issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwoSYWIgV9Y


The point of this video is that Japanese in Japan differ from Japanese in the USA about the issue.

The Japanese in Japan dont give a toss about it apparently.