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Kraichgauer
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17 Jul 2015, 6:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


its more an excuse to steal money that isn't theirs and make themselves rich

its all a racket


What, the government? Salaries for elected leaders aren't that much of a strain on the economy. If you mean people who are in poverty, or are disabled are doing the stealing, well, they're hardly the ones collecting taxes. So really, no individual or individuals are getting rich off of collecting taxes. They do, though, with exorbitant tax cuts - and that's if they're already rich.


I was talking about the supposed Keynesian deficit spenders and money printing central bankers, they rob you blind and you don't even know. They don't have to tax, they can just leach the value out of your money by creating more. Obama's stimulus was just him paying off everyone that got him to the White House, Big Business in the US is the biggest welfare queen in the world next to our MIC. We have so many sacred cows. Poor and working class people aren't lobbying congress, their voices don't ever actually get heard. There is no saving in "good times" its just more take take take and when the recession it was take take take. It's a racket. Our government is bought and paid for by the special interests.


Okay; didn't mean to jump down your throat. :oops:


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blauSamstag
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17 Jul 2015, 8:50 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


its more an excuse to steal money that isn't theirs and make themselves rich

its all a racket


What, the government? Salaries for elected leaders aren't that much of a strain on the economy. If you mean people who are in poverty, or are disabled are doing the stealing, well, they're hardly the ones collecting taxes. So really, no individual or individuals are getting rich off of collecting taxes. They do, though, with exorbitant tax cuts - and that's if they're already rich.


I was talking about the supposed Keynesian deficit spenders and money printing central bankers, they rob you blind and you don't even know. They don't have to tax, they can just leach the value out of your money by creating more. Obama's stimulus was just him paying off everyone that got him to the White House, Big Business in the US is the biggest welfare queen in the world next to our MIC. We have so many sacred cows. Poor and working class people aren't lobbying congress, their voices don't ever actually get heard. There is no saving in "good times" its just more take take take and when the recession it was take take take. It's a racket. Our government is bought and paid for by the special interests.


Got him elected in what regard?

If you mean campaign funding, here's the list of top contributors (after bundling):

http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contr ... =N00009638

How does it line up with recipients of economic stimulus?

And fwiw i don't think bailouts count as stimulus precisely, since the way they were structured they had to be paid back, and mostly with interest.



Jacoby
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17 Jul 2015, 9:35 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


its more an excuse to steal money that isn't theirs and make themselves rich

its all a racket


What, the government? Salaries for elected leaders aren't that much of a strain on the economy. If you mean people who are in poverty, or are disabled are doing the stealing, well, they're hardly the ones collecting taxes. So really, no individual or individuals are getting rich off of collecting taxes. They do, though, with exorbitant tax cuts - and that's if they're already rich.


I was talking about the supposed Keynesian deficit spenders and money printing central bankers, they rob you blind and you don't even know. They don't have to tax, they can just leach the value out of your money by creating more. Obama's stimulus was just him paying off everyone that got him to the White House, Big Business in the US is the biggest welfare queen in the world next to our MIC. We have so many sacred cows. Poor and working class people aren't lobbying congress, their voices don't ever actually get heard. There is no saving in "good times" its just more take take take and when the recession it was take take take. It's a racket. Our government is bought and paid for by the special interests.


Got him elected in what regard?

If you mean campaign funding, here's the list of top contributors (after bundling):

http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contr ... =N00009638

How does it line up with recipients of economic stimulus?

And fwiw i don't think bailouts count as stimulus precisely, since the way they were structured they had to be paid back, and mostly with interest.



Most of the money went to unions, bogus 'green' jobs such as Solyndra, and Barack's buddies on Wall Street. Follow the money and you'll see that most of it ended up in the hands of Dem supporters or Dem controlled states. Obama's stimulus was a lie, it didn't help down on their luck Americans and it wasn't "shovel ready". It just was a trillion dollar hand out. These crook "Keynesians" such as Paul Krugman actually are trying to convince people the stimulus didn't work because it wasn't large enough even tho congress actually gave Obama more than they were even advocating for back in 2008, Krugman is a master of saying one thing then pretending he didn't once he is proven wrong.



wowiexist
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17 Jul 2015, 9:52 pm

This is true most of the time. I have met people who are on public assistance and have no desire to work though. But if we could get rid of the people who do that wouldn't the people who truly need them be able to get more? That is something to think about.



blauSamstag
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17 Jul 2015, 9:56 pm

Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


its more an excuse to steal money that isn't theirs and make themselves rich

its all a racket


What, the government? Salaries for elected leaders aren't that much of a strain on the economy. If you mean people who are in poverty, or are disabled are doing the stealing, well, they're hardly the ones collecting taxes. So really, no individual or individuals are getting rich off of collecting taxes. They do, though, with exorbitant tax cuts - and that's if they're already rich.


I was talking about the supposed Keynesian deficit spenders and money printing central bankers, they rob you blind and you don't even know. They don't have to tax, they can just leach the value out of your money by creating more. Obama's stimulus was just him paying off everyone that got him to the White House, Big Business in the US is the biggest welfare queen in the world next to our MIC. We have so many sacred cows. Poor and working class people aren't lobbying congress, their voices don't ever actually get heard. There is no saving in "good times" its just more take take take and when the recession it was take take take. It's a racket. Our government is bought and paid for by the special interests.


Got him elected in what regard?

If you mean campaign funding, here's the list of top contributors (after bundling):

http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contr ... =N00009638

How does it line up with recipients of economic stimulus?

And fwiw i don't think bailouts count as stimulus precisely, since the way they were structured they had to be paid back, and mostly with interest.



Most of the money went to unions, bogus 'green' jobs such as Solyndra, and Barack's buddies on Wall Street. Follow the money and you'll see that most of it ended up in the hands of Dem supporters or Dem controlled states. Obama's stimulus was a lie, it didn't help down on their luck Americans and it wasn't "shovel ready". It just was a trillion dollar hand out. These crook "Keynesians" such as Paul Krugman actually are trying to convince people the stimulus didn't work because it wasn't large enough even tho congress actually gave Obama more than they were even advocating for back in 2008, Krugman is a master of saying one thing then pretending he didn't once he is proven wrong.


It would be great if you could be specific about that stuff.

For example, which unions? SEIU has not flourished under the obama administration, despite all the warnings from the right wing that obama was just their manchurian candidate.

The Solyndra thing started under W, fwiw. And the truth is, there are innumerable companies set up every year with the express intention of getting money from the feds and then failing.

In fact, for 6 years i worked for a company that was set up to get a few million bucks from the DOD and then fail to deliver, and somehow failed to fail to deliver, and got dragged kicking and screaming into profitability. It turned out that they sucked less than the competition, and not for lack of effort. When i left, they had been at it for 20 years. Our contacts at the DOD told us that the 15 million and change they were spending on our regulatory compliance software every year was peanuts compared to what they used to pay in fines and settlements. We had a 40% profit margin it's not like we were running a charity!

The real question shouldn't be why the obama administration fell for it, but why every single administration since eisenhower falls for it.

Which buddies on wall street, and how? Goldman excels by being the best at being evil. McCain's contributors were largely wall street too - including Goldman:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contr ... =N00006424



Jacoby
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17 Jul 2015, 10:57 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


its more an excuse to steal money that isn't theirs and make themselves rich

its all a racket


What, the government? Salaries for elected leaders aren't that much of a strain on the economy. If you mean people who are in poverty, or are disabled are doing the stealing, well, they're hardly the ones collecting taxes. So really, no individual or individuals are getting rich off of collecting taxes. They do, though, with exorbitant tax cuts - and that's if they're already rich.


I was talking about the supposed Keynesian deficit spenders and money printing central bankers, they rob you blind and you don't even know. They don't have to tax, they can just leach the value out of your money by creating more. Obama's stimulus was just him paying off everyone that got him to the White House, Big Business in the US is the biggest welfare queen in the world next to our MIC. We have so many sacred cows. Poor and working class people aren't lobbying congress, their voices don't ever actually get heard. There is no saving in "good times" its just more take take take and when the recession it was take take take. It's a racket. Our government is bought and paid for by the special interests.


Got him elected in what regard?

If you mean campaign funding, here's the list of top contributors (after bundling):

http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contr ... =N00009638

How does it line up with recipients of economic stimulus?

And fwiw i don't think bailouts count as stimulus precisely, since the way they were structured they had to be paid back, and mostly with interest.



Most of the money went to unions, bogus 'green' jobs such as Solyndra, and Barack's buddies on Wall Street. Follow the money and you'll see that most of it ended up in the hands of Dem supporters or Dem controlled states. Obama's stimulus was a lie, it didn't help down on their luck Americans and it wasn't "shovel ready". It just was a trillion dollar hand out. These crook "Keynesians" such as Paul Krugman actually are trying to convince people the stimulus didn't work because it wasn't large enough even tho congress actually gave Obama more than they were even advocating for back in 2008, Krugman is a master of saying one thing then pretending he didn't once he is proven wrong.


It would be great if you could be specific about that stuff.

For example, which unions? SEIU has not flourished under the obama administration, despite all the warnings from the right wing that obama was just their manchurian candidate.

The Solyndra thing started under W, fwiw. And the truth is, there are innumerable companies set up every year with the express intention of getting money from the feds and then failing.

In fact, for 6 years i worked for a company that was set up to get a few million bucks from the DOD and then fail to deliver, and somehow failed to fail to deliver, and got dragged kicking and screaming into profitability. It turned out that they sucked less than the competition, and not for lack of effort. When i left, they had been at it for 20 years. Our contacts at the DOD told us that the 15 million and change they were spending on our regulatory compliance software every year was peanuts compared to what they used to pay in fines and settlements. We had a 40% profit margin it's not like we were running a charity!

The real question shouldn't be why the obama administration fell for it, but why every single administration since eisenhower falls for it.

Which buddies on wall street, and how? Goldman excels by being the best at being evil. McCain's contributors were largely wall street too - including Goldman:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contr ... =N00006424


Money is rarely "wasted", someone is making money even if the company is not. The whole "Green revolution" was corporatist horses**t, smoke and mirrors. The elites have diverse holdings, it might not be obvious how benefits from what but somebody is.

Public employee unions ended up with the bulk of the stimulus money in Wisconsin, before Walker they ruled the state with an iron fist. There was a cycle of money, the public employees had the state collect union dues which they used to elect their candidates who would vote would pump more money into public employees which would start the cycle anew. I wonder how much of that stimulus money was used trying recall Walker?

It's hard to be specific with the stimulus tho, the fact is we don't know where it all went and our representatives didn't even know what was in the bill when they voted on it.



cathylynn
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17 Jul 2015, 11:34 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.


clinton was saving up but bush ruined it with giveaways to the rich and the immoral iraq war.



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17 Jul 2015, 11:39 pm

cathylynn wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Right. Keynes proposed that the government should spend big on stimulus in a recession and then get stingy and save up capital when things are going well.

To my knowledge, no government has ever worked both ends if that scale.

clinton was saving up but bush ruined it with giveaways to the rich and the immoral iraq war.

and shrub and co. got away with that wholesale, because too many average American voters are fine with coddling the wealthy and punishing everybody else to pay for it, because they seem themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires."



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17 Jul 2015, 11:59 pm

Iraq was getting invaded regardless, Bush/Chaney actually ran as the peace candidate Gore/Lieberman believe it or not. The PATRIOT Act was drawn up in 1999 two full years before 9/11. It was during the Clinton administration that they started using the term "regime change", they had voted on regime change in Iraq back in 1998.

The powers that be hedge their bets, they can't lose.



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18 Jul 2015, 12:05 am

Jacoby wrote:
Iraq was getting invaded regardless, Bush/Chaney actually ran as the peace candidate Gore/Lieberman believe it or not. The PATRIOT Act was drawn up in 1999 two full years before 9/11. It was during the Clinton administration that they started using the term "regime change", they had voted on regime change in Iraq back in 1998.

The powers that be hedge their bets, they can't lose.

i'd like to see some sources for this "info".



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18 Jul 2015, 12:17 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_C ... ct_of_1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiterro ... ct_of_1996
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act



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18 Jul 2015, 12:22 am

cathylynn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Iraq was getting invaded regardless, Bush/Chaney actually ran as the peace candidate Gore/Lieberman believe it or not. The PATRIOT Act was drawn up in 1999 two full years before 9/11. It was during the Clinton administration that they started using the term "regime change", they had voted on regime change in Iraq back in 1998.

The powers that be hedge their bets, they can't lose.

i'd like to see some sources for this "info".


It's sort of true. The W administration was looking for a pretext to invade Iraq before 9/11 - i believe there are some leaked documents? Dick Cheney wrote articles for PNAC prior to the campaign where he advocated the same, with some kind of coke-fueled fantasy of setting up Iraq as a client state and using that as a seat of power with which to rule the middle east by proxy.

Remember Ahmed Chalabi? The iranian agent that fed our government a line of BS about iraqis greeting us with open arms? Good times.

The patriot act wasn't just written in the 90's, most of the language is lifted from a bill that Joe Biden wrote in the 90's.



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18 Jul 2015, 12:24 am

Jacoby wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiterro ... ct_of_1996
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act


supporting freedom fighters in iraq does not equal invasion.



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18 Jul 2015, 12:31 am

here's another mind****


After the first Iraq war, there were sanctions and no fly zone put on Iraq which resulted in the deaths of up to 500,000 children and this was before we ever invaded. Yeah, they'll greet us as liberators... :roll: We created ISIS ourselves by the cruelty we showed to the Arab people, we punished innocent civilians in an effort to try to get to Saddam.



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18 Jul 2015, 12:47 am

cathylynn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiterro ... ct_of_1996
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act


supporting freedom fighters in iraq does not equal invasion.


Shortly after that bill was signed, the Clinton administration bombed the hell out of Iraq. Convienient timing, articles of impeachment were being debated in the US congress at literally the exact same time as the bombings. Bill and Hilary both support the Bush administrations decision to invade Iraq, if he could of done in during his administration he probably would of but they needed something like 9/11 to justify it.



Clinton was an awful hawk, he used military force in Haiti, Yugoslavia/Serbia/Kosovo, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan. North Korea was very close to being invaded by the US back in like 1994 too. There is so much revisionist garbage with the Clintons, Bill was lucky to have been president when the economy was doing well thus people don't remember all the bad things he did besides that one thing he did in the Oval Office.



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18 Jul 2015, 12:50 am

cheney, like most sociopaths, knows how to sound convincing.