Why do SJWs think I'm obligated to kiss their ass?

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Claiming someone loses credibility when they state an opinion that negates nothing rather than a fact that negates the argument, doesn't make the claim true.

Galymcd also brings up something that has been proven to now be common behaviour amongst third wave feminists and SJW's alike - Doxxing. There's nothing decent or humane about ruining some stranger's life for daring to disagree with you, claiming a victory over it and what not. Nor should it be enabled through SJW methodology such as the "no true Scotsman" approach and throwing around yet more "ist" labels. If these radical misandrists are not to be associated with third wavers then those "real" feminists you seem to laud should take their feminism back from them, not ignore the problem and blame the victim while claiming victimhood.

Your most recent post doesn't invalidate the points you made in your previous ones, but I don't get why the sudden change in attitude. Are you parodying a SJW?

Can we please stop calling them feminists when they are not please --_--

You say take it back but you could say the same thing about many extreme groups. Like hey you aspergers person of your not like rainman why don't you reclaim it. Or hey you Christian why don't you reclaim the idea of Christians for the extreme Christians.

It's difficult to take back something that creates drama and interest because drams and interest are what people crave. So when extremists make noise its impossible to quite

Only takes a few bad apples and suddenly feminism becomes a dirty word. People are so ready to jump and disagree with your opinion because they assume your an extreme third wave feminist.

It's not like extreme Christians are the majority of Christians people just notice them more because they make more noise. If you go on to the women's discussion the majority of feminists on here old school not third wave feminists. Although I do feel a bit like people use the whole 'third wave feminists are evil' thing to shut down people opinions sometimes

These so called third wave feminist are to extreme in their ideals and making things worse for some women.

Welp... thread's thoroughly derailed, now!

Anyway, I'd consider myself a Third Wave Feminist. I don't hate men; that'd be super-awkward since I am one. I don't dox people, and have never met any feminist who thinks it is acceptable to do so. Nor have I met any feminist of repute who dismisses the problems men face (I'm sure there are a few; law of averages). I'm just seeing a ton of strawmen and other intellectually dishonest claims in here.

Strawman?

Unless you are referring to the use of the word extremist or SJW I'm not sure how I've called anyone any names. Guessing that's relating to an older post.

I somewhat agree with your point about social groups decrying their more extremist counterparts, Alliekit; It can be very difficult to accomplish because it essentially makes them martyrs to their beliefs as someone "shuts them down", ironically the very same thing they're doing to others. However, I do think whether it's feminism, MRA's, religious ideologies or ethnic power groups....many fall silent when it comes to criticising or distancing from the extremists when they claim a victory and silence what are deemed as the opposing pressure groups. In a way the extreme counterparts have done the regular folks a "favour". A good example is the EU referendum - a lot of hate speech from extreme people both sides goes ignored by the more regular voters because they are "on their side", and the "No true Scotsman" fallacy arises once more rather than an attempt to dissolve the issues caused by those behaving unjustly.

I also feel that feminism shouldn't be a dirty word. It's simply changed with the times as the Western world has changed has the playing field so it has become more level. Overall minorities of all kinds are more accepted than they once were (great! ) However there's still some way to go, and when things have gotten better it can make fighting for a cause seem limp, which is why we have the trope of SJW's - they create causes to fight for as the real causes to fight for diminish. A bit like how the media "creates" news when there is none to report.

I'd just like to say that this post isn't calling anyone names and it's offering constructive criticism, at least attempting to address (in my mind) the why's and how's of this particular social movement. I accept if you don't appreciate my views, and it's healthy for a debate to have 2 sides and not 1. I'm sorry if I am offensive, but I'm just stating my opinions. I believe feminism along with a lot of other movements have merit and are simply hijacked away from good intentioned people. Topics like this though, do raise hairs and thus when things get heated it's hard to both be sensitive to another person's opposing views and take shots at the same time.

Alliekit - this is a straw man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

EDIT: Not sure what this has to do with dating still.
I'm guessing social movements have made some men feel too afraid to even do normal things like say "hi" to girls and get to know them and ultimately turn them into bitter resentful folks.

Most of what I would have responded with was covered by AllieKat and AJ and replied to by you.

I don't typically support doxxing, but to pretend this is a behaviour limited to folks who get labelled SJWs is flat-out incorrect.
I don't support violence against one's political opponents except for in the context of self-defence, but to pretend this is a behaviour limited to folks who get labelled SJWs is flat-out incorrect.

An argument made of false generalizations and bovine excrement is worthless. I'm sorry if you don't like my approach but intellectually dishonest arguments don't deserve to be addressed in the same way as reasonable ones.

Anyways, if you don't wish to be lumped in with the misogynists who attack feminism for advocating egalitarianism, why defend them? Why gravitate towards them? I'm not suggesting you're actually a misogynist, I'm just mirroring your own 'take it back' argument.

I do disagree with one thing AllieKat said.



Extreme positions existed in both the second and third wave, and some of the more extreme positions today are still tied to the second wave. Some third-wavers are also extreme, but in many ways the 'third wave' exists in response to the excesses of the 'second wave'. The position I used earlier that 'all heterosexual intercourse is rape' is typically connected to the second wave, third wavers being the ones who condemn it as extreme and dismissive of individuals agency.

Also, a tangent from:



I'm not sure it took any bad apples, all it took was to question what was 'normal' and 'proper'. Extremist positions often develop in response to feeling that any amount of moderate or incremental change advocated for will be ignored and responded to with hostility - why be moderate when you'll be labelled as extreme anyways? I don't agree with that notion, but when 'soft' methods don't work someone will eventually feel the need to be young Malcolm X compared to the moderates MLK.

I'm noticing that a lot of people seem to think it's "a few bad apples" in feminism. So that would imply that most feminists are actually doing good things for women.

Any reasonable person can see that Western countries treat women FAR better than almost anywhere else in the world. I recently saw an article about a Muslim woman who was stoned to death for simply marrying the man she loves. This kind of thing happens all the time in Muslim countries, and polls have shown that even many "moderate" Muslims believe this is acceptable.

And yet, I have not seen a single feminist talking about this or related issues. I'm sure there are some, but they are the clear minority, and if they spoke up they'd surely get shouted down by SJWs who think that it's racist to say anything bad about Islam.

The "true" feminists get no mainstream attention. Instead we see Buzzfeed videos that get millions of views talking about how privileged white males are, or Anita Sarkesian, probably the most well-known mainstream feminist, and all she does is talk about how video games are sexist if a character is a sexy woman, or that Twitter trolls should be censored for "hate speech".

I could go on and on with examples of mainstream, popular feminism doing this kind of pointless crap instead of focusing on important issues. This is not just "a few bad apples".

It's a false dichotomy to say people can't be concerned about something like sexism in video games AND ALSO be concerned about more severe forms of sexism in the Middle East. People in general tend to talk about and complain about things that affect them personally, which is why you will likely hear more Western women discussing Western problems. That doesn't mean we don't care about our sisters abroad.

But they don't is the key. I didn't say they couldn't. Also, sexism in video games does not exist. It's not important at all, and yet they routinely focus on issues like that over the real ones.

I'm not saying that all feminists are like this. I'm saying that mainstream feminism is.

Actually plenty of women talk about that. They usually do that in those Muslim countries where there being oppressed. Some even had a mass protest of driving. I'm glad we're at a point in this country that we're so far removed from that most people here couldn't even fathom living like that. Have you heard of Malala Yousafzai? She is a great example of mainstream feminism.

You keep focusing in all these random examples and then you label them with the mainstream opinion without any evidence of that other than your own personal perception.

And sexism in video games absolutely exists. I agree some of Sarkeesian's examples are a bit of a stretch. But even she doesn't say the medium is bad. She is just pointing out certain aspects that bother her. And it doesn't matter if it isn't a super important issue. It just happens to be the one she is interested in.

I don't understand why you try so hard to minimize sexism and bigotry in our society. Just because it's better than it was in the past doesn't mean it's fixed.

People mix up prejudice against religious ideology with race all the time on both sides of the fence which is really annoying. Once they realise it isn't racist or xenophobic to question, challenge and condemn ideologies or parts of it things will get back on track.

And there's your fundamental problem, along with that of the SJWs: you think that racism and sexism can be "fixed". It can't.

But to address the other things you said, I am honestly a little confused. Even if I were to grant that good feminists do get just as much mainstream attention as the SJW ones (which they don't), you cannot simply deny that SJWs have a large following and plenty of mainstream attention. Like I pointed out in another thread, they are so loud and have enough influence that even President Obama himself has, in several speeches, repeated their wage gap number of 77 cents on the dollar, despite it being false. There are some disparities, but it's not accurate to say it's 77 cents on the dollar. But this is a common belief of SJWs that is being repeated by the guy in the highest elected office in America. That's not nothing.

No it can't be fixed. The point is there are always going to be corrosive forces in society and we should stay aware of them.

And I don't care what mainstream media focuses on. They are more focused on stoking outrage wherever they can find it. Abd outraged people are loud people. Besides our culture is so much more niche based now with the how much on demand content there is.

Look, all I'm saying is that people treat SJWs as if they are a non issue, and I think that's wrong. They are just as intolerant as the racists they claim to hate, but the difference is nobody listens to the KKK or Neo Nazis.

They don't what? Care about women in the Middle East? I disagree with that, as I already stated.



I feel like you didn't read what I wrote before, explaining that people usually talk more about things that affect them directly. And yes, as a woman who's been a "gamer" since ColecoVision, I can tell you that sexism in video games does exist. It's getting better within the games themselves (there was a time when the option to play as a female character was revolutionary), but GamerGate should show you the type of misogyny and hatred that women gamers still confront from men gamers. Or are you one of those people who still think it's about "ethics in journalism"?

They don't talk about both, I mean. I already explained why: SJWs think it's racist to talk about the problems with Islam. I don't think you understand, I'm talking about a very specific kind of person when I say SJW. I'm basically referring to the ones who take it to the extreme (who are more common than you think) to demonstrate the flaws in their thinking.

And anyway, I was talking about sexism in video games, not Gamergate. Obviously I don't condone harassing people.

I guess I just don't see how a guy being mean on Xbox Live, or not having a playable female character in every game, is proof of discrimination against women in the gaming industry.