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XFilesGeek
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02 Sep 2017, 1:10 pm

adifferentname wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Dude blamed poverty on women. That's sexist.


That's not what was claimed in the OP. He allegedly claimed that "family breakdown is caused mostly by women". Whilst that might not be a popular opinion, it's certainly a belief that he might reasonably have formed based on data rather than prejudice.

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Dude blamed problems in the black community solely n the black community, and denied the role of racism. Not necessarily racist, but edging very close.


He certainly seemed to imply that "black behaviour" was the prime factor. As he's discussing behaviour rather than e.g. "nature", it's probably safe to assume he's discussing culture - which is not an innate property of race or ethnicity. To label this racist requires an additional step wherein we assume the worst and attribute a justification or rationale which isn't present: e.g. "black behaviour causes black poverty and they're incapable of changing for the better due to their inferior genetics".

Had the underlined text been present, it would be clear-cut.

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What you refer to as "skepticism," I see as convoluted mental gymnastics.


Convoluted how? By all means disagree with my reasoning, but if you're going to claim "mental gymnastics" you need to back that up. My argument is neither complex nor inventive and can be expressed in a single, simple sentence:

"I do not accept the assertion that the alleged words of Naked Ape demonstrate racism or sexism as there is insufficient data in support of the accusation."

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People are not so easily defined as "racist" or "not racist."


So you actually agree with me, yet maintain that we should just listen and believe?

Quote:
There's shades of grey between the two endpoints, and, just because not everything can be called "racist," it doesn't mean that nothing ever is. A person can express opinions that are in the ballpark of "racism/sexism" without actually being full-blown racists/sexists. Sorry, but I'm not going to shy away from calling a spade a spade just because I don't have 100% concrete proof that the person uttering the remarks is a hardcore racist/sexist.


Whereas I'm not going to assume there's a spade unless you actually brandish one. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either we're supposed to listen and believe or there are shades of grey. Pick one.

I'm also going to call projection on your part regarding the earlier claim of "mental gymnastics" considering the logic of the above. A condensed version of the quoted paragraph might read:

"People are not easily defined as black or white, but this guy is clearly black despite appearing grey."

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Saying, "Black people are thugs," is racist.


Nothing he allegedly said comes close to being the equivalent of "black people are thugs".

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I'm not a huge fan of witch hunts. Nor am I particularly fond of environments where questioning whether or not the assessment of "witch" is a fair one is met with derision and moral outrage. When you take into consideration the fact that I was explicitly labelled "very far right" - a phrase surely intended to suggest that I, too, am a witch - despite my being nothing of the sort, it lends a great deal of weight to the concerns of those members of this board who perceive an "extreme left" bias or trend.

Finally, I'll return to your earlier post:

Quote:
So, racist and sexist rants need to be examined to the smallest detail before they're declared racist/sexist?

Lovely.....


If popular opinion on this board supports the notion that claims made by self-identified "left wingers" regarding those identified as "right wingers" should be above reproach or question, that demonstrates an ideological bias. Do you stand by your original position or, as seems probable going by your "shades of grey" statement, do you actually accept that such things should always be up for debate?


You can say racist things without actually being a racist.

You can say sexist things without actually being sexist.

Most people, including liberals, tend to hold at least a few problematic opinions that should be examined. For example, I'm not fond of the liberal practice of classifying women and non-whites as "victims." I am not a "victim," nor am I "oppressed." I'm a fully capable individual who charts their own destiny.

Pointing these problematic opinion out shouldn't cause pearl-clutching and panty-bunching.

I'm just saying....


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marshall
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02 Sep 2017, 2:57 pm

Chichikov wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think the black "ghetto" culture mentioned is maladaptive. I don't believe it is caused by genetics or some kind of character flaw that can be attributed to race. You know black people who immigrate from Africa don't have the same cultural problems. A large part of American black culture is completely alien to them.

So it's just coincidence that it's mainly black cultures that are affected? Given the climate created by the regular posters here it's impossible to discuss or come to any reasonable conclusion as any argument is shouted down at the earliest opportunity as being "racist". So the problem remains and noone can look to solve it.

The common thread is of black cultures that have been historically targeted by racism, not black cultures in general.

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However if I brought up that black people make up a disproportionately large amount of the prison population, what is your response to that going to be? What brash prejudiced criticism are you going to levy against an entire section of people without even seeing a single hint of hypocrisy?

That there is a historical reason urban black culture in the US developed maladaptive tendencies... and most of it leads back to historical racism. There are negative feedbacks that cause the problem to persist.

If all you are expecting is a knee-jerk condemnation so you can easily dismiss me, sorry to disappoint. Some militant BLM members would probably attack me for saying black culture has anything to do with it and blame it entirely on unfair targeting of blacks. Open racists will attack me for even suggesting that the problem is more complex than "black people suck". As far as my feelings go, I'll admit have a hell of lot more sympathy for BLM militants than open white racists, but I have to admit that both share a lack of introspection.



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02 Sep 2017, 3:18 pm

Mikah wrote:
Not sure if you want to discuss the basis of the argument or your opponent's ungentlemanly behaviour.

marshall wrote:
This guy is a typical specimen of the millennial contingent of the US/UK far right. They are a product of the protected "safe space" of internet anonymity. You notice they don't even show their real face on any of their videos. These people would get the everliving snot beat out of them if they acted out their obnoxious internet persona in front of real people.


Said without sense of the tragic irony for a society that supposedly believes in free speech. The sad truth is they would be under similar threat even if they expressed these views in a more polite manner.

What you don't seem to understand is that the very foundations of freedom are violently shaken when you have certain large demographics that are literally at each other's throat with hatred. I think that is the reason certain views are culturally frowned upon. If they are allowed to flourish they may just lead to open violence, as we are starting to see. If you don't have enough empathy to understand this you are hopeless.

Liberal democracy can only survive when there is some semblance of unity to be had. When certain people have views that are so diametrically opposed as to create a sense of existential threat (talks of ethnic cleansing of certain groups would be the most common example), free society begins to break down. The government starts to crack down on freedom of speech simply to prevent open mob violence.

I think this is a reason why there is no true absolute freedom of speech where I live here in Turkey. Ever since the beginning of the republic, Islamists and Secularists have been so diametrically opposed that there is non-negligible threat of the state breaking down and violence erupting. Therefore whoever is currently in power tends to repress the side of the population that isn't in power, mostly out of fear.



0_equals_true
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02 Sep 2017, 3:42 pm

marshall wrote:
I think this is a reason why there is no true absolute freedom of speech where I live here in Turkey. Ever since the beginning of the republic, Islamists and Secularists have been so diametrically opposed that there is non-negligible threat of the state breaking down and violence erupting. Therefore whoever is currently in power tends to repress the side of the population that isn't in power, mostly out of fear.


That is pretty much all for Central Asia, the Levant, Arabia and then some.

They fear their ideas.

Then basically principle of freedom is one's right cannot supersede another. There are three types of rights:
1. Fundamental
2. Derived from fundamental rights
3. Pseudo-rights and privileges

Freedom of speech is a derived right, the fundamental right is actually freedom of expression. Legal recognition of marriage is legal status more than a right, I would class it is as a pseudo-right as without legal marriage we are not less free, in fact without the conflation that comes with it, there is more religious and cultural freedom for marriage customs.

The more people argue for privileges as right the more this undermines the basic principle of rights.

Violence obviously undermines peoples rights, it doesn't matter if is neo-Nazis or Antifa doing it.



0_equals_true
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02 Sep 2017, 3:43 pm

My favourite Turk was Turan Dursun. He was assassinated for expressing his views, look him up.



Chichikov
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02 Sep 2017, 4:18 pm

marshall wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think the black "ghetto" culture mentioned is maladaptive. I don't believe it is caused by genetics or some kind of character flaw that can be attributed to race. You know black people who immigrate from Africa don't have the same cultural problems. A large part of American black culture is completely alien to them.

So it's just coincidence that it's mainly black cultures that are affected? Given the climate created by the regular posters here it's impossible to discuss or come to any reasonable conclusion as any argument is shouted down at the earliest opportunity as being "racist". So the problem remains and noone can look to solve it.

The common thread is of black cultures that have been historically targeted by racism, not black cultures in general.

Quote:
However if I brought up that black people make up a disproportionately large amount of the prison population, what is your response to that going to be? What brash prejudiced criticism are you going to levy against an entire section of people without even seeing a single hint of hypocrisy?

That there is a historical reason urban black culture in the US developed maladaptive tendencies... and most of it leads back to historical racism. There are negative feedbacks that cause the problem to persist.

If all you are expecting is a knee-jerk condemnation so you can easily dismiss me, sorry to disappoint. Some militant BLM members would probably attack me for saying black culture has anything to do with it and blame it entirely on unfair targeting of blacks. Open racists will attack me for even suggesting that the problem is more complex than "black people suck". As far as my feelings go, I'll admit have a hell of lot more sympathy for BLM militants than open white racists, but I have to admit that both share a lack of introspection.

Lol despite knowing it was a trap you STILL couldn't stop yourself.

Marshall thinks that when white people do bad things it's because white people are racist. When black people do bad things it's because white people are racist. Marshall sees nothing wrong with these beliefs at all.

You're just an apologist. Black people commit half of all murders in the USA despite being 13% of the population. 90% of black people murdered were murdered by other black people. Damn those white people must be racist as hell!



Chichikov
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02 Sep 2017, 4:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Police disproportionately target black people, is one reason.

Proof?



adifferentname
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02 Sep 2017, 5:10 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

You can say racist things without actually being a racist.

You can say sexist things without actually being sexist.


Even if we accept that as being true, how does it help matters? Without demonstrable discrimination or prejudice, we're still at square one.

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Most people, including liberals, tend to hold at least a few problematic opinions that should be examined. For example, I'm not fond of the liberal practice of classifying women and non-whites as "victims." I am not a "victim," nor am I "oppressed." I'm a fully capable individual who charts their own destiny.


Classifying women and non-whites collectively as "victims" is the antithesis of liberalism.

N.B. I consider "Progressive Liberalism" to be neither progressive nor liberal, but that would take us on something of a digression.

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Pointing these problematic opinion out shouldn't cause pearl-clutching and panty-bunching.


Which "problematic opinion"? Who is clutching at pearls or bunching their panties?

Quote:
I'm just saying....


No, you're indirectly insinuating - and somewhat clumsily at that. You've also steadfastly avoided directly answering any of my arguments, which is a shame. I'd be especially interested in your answer to the question I asked at the end of my previous post.

marshall wrote:
Perhaps the resident "rational centrist" adifferentname will correct your blatant logical fallacies since he takes so much offense at being labelled "right wing".


Who are you quoting? It certainly can't be me, as I don't consider myself to be a "centrist". As for "rational", you've got me bang to rights.

Whilst we're at it, whatever gives you the impression I'm offended by vague, facile labels? Perhaps you're making the mistake of projecting your own feelings about the term "right wing" onto me. FYI: to the overwhelming majority of sensible people, "right wing" is not synonymous with "morally bankrupt".

I'll pass on your offer of a tag-in. If you lack the fortitude to handle Chichikov by yourself, you deserve to endure any verbal beatdown he inflicts on you. I've already requested he posts his position in full. Until he does so, there's little point debating him.



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02 Sep 2017, 5:43 pm

He hasn't and won't inflict any "beatdown" on me. All he did was cry about me attacking wh***y because I believe there are causal connections in human culture. He wants to pretend past racism has no effect on black culture. To even talk about reality triggers him, because he makes the logical error of conflating an argument about causality with an argument about moral responsibility. I apply moral responsibility to individuals, not collectives.



adifferentname
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02 Sep 2017, 5:53 pm

marshall wrote:
He hasn't and won't inflict any "beatdown" on me.


Then stop whining for support.

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All he did was cry about me attacking wh***y because I believe there are causal connections in human culture. He wants to pretend past racism has no effect on black culture. To even talk about reality triggers him, because he makes the logical error of conflating an argument about causality with an argument about moral responsibility. I apply moral responsibility to individuals, not collectives.


I'm not interested in a petty "he said, she said" spat between the two of you. You and I are communicating now solely because you decided to take an unprovoked backhanded swipe at me. If you can't control your impulse to lash out, you really shouldn't expect any sympathy from any quarter.



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02 Sep 2017, 5:56 pm

Quote:
marshall wrote:
Perhaps the resident "rational centrist" adifferentname will correct your blatant logical fallacies since he takes so much offense at being labelled "right wing".


Who are you quoting? It certainly can't be me, as I don't consider myself to be a "centrist". As for "rational", you've got me bang to rights.

Whilst we're at it, whatever gives you the impression I'm offended by vague, facile labels? Perhaps you're making the mistake of projecting your own feelings about the term "right wing" onto me. FYI: to the overwhelming majority of sensible people, "right wing" is not synonymous with "morally bankrupt".

No, you object to "right wing" because you want to think of yourself as a special snowflake that is above any kind of label, even if that label happens to apply to your particular type of biases.



marshall
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02 Sep 2017, 6:10 pm

adifferentname wrote:
marshall wrote:
He hasn't and won't inflict any "beatdown" on me.


Then stop whining for support.

Quote:
All he did was cry about me attacking wh***y because I believe there are causal connections in human culture. He wants to pretend past racism has no effect on black culture. To even talk about reality triggers him, because he makes the logical error of conflating an argument about causality with an argument about moral responsibility. I apply moral responsibility to individuals, not collectives.


I'm not interested in a petty "he said, she said" spat between the two of you. You and I are communicating now solely because you decided to take an unprovoked backhanded swipe at me. If you can't control your impulse to lash out, you really shouldn't expect any sympathy from any quarter.

I responded because I'm quite frankly disgusted by your blatant lack of empathy and complete unawareness of your own biases. I think anyone with a brain can see your ridiculousness in this thread.



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02 Sep 2017, 6:16 pm

marshall wrote:
No, you object to "right wing" because you want to think of yourself as a special snowflake that is above any kind of label, even if that label happens to apply to your particular type of biases.


Had you bothered to read the thread, you'd understand that what I object to is being referred to as "very right wing" by someone for whom the term "very right wing" is likely synonymous with "Nazi". Whereas I object to being called "right wing" as it comes nowhere near to describing my political position. Even if I were to reduce my political stance to the overly-simplistic scale of the left-right dichotomy, I'd come out left of centre.

It's telling that you're, once again, insisting on projecting your own BS and prejudices onto me. Let me make this perfectly clear so I don't have to waste any more time on you.

You don't know me. You don't know anything about my beliefs, my motivations or my inspirations beyond those few I've elected to share on this board, let alone what I think about myself. Filling the blanks with your own spuriously formed and derogatory opinions based on your own half-baked and obstinate beliefs about my 'identity' isn't merely pathetic, it's also de facto bigotry.

Quote:
I responded because I'm quite frankly disgusted by your blatant lack of empathy and complete unawareness of your own biases. I think anyone with a brain can see your ridiculousness in this thread.


I don't care what your self-aggrandising, moralistically preening self-justification is for acting like a first rate asshat. Your bid for the moral high ground is rendered utterly futile by the pathetic, unprovoked sniping you engaged in. If you have nothing productive to offer, I strongly suggest you find someone else to pester with your inane armchair psychological profiling.



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03 Sep 2017, 12:40 am

it's very likely Trump wasn't president yet in the year (95) of it's resurrection



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03 Sep 2017, 3:47 am

Some people at both extreme ends of the political spectrum are too far gone to get into dialogue with. They seem permanently angry, will lash out at seemingly anyone and I find that often they don't actually understand many of the issues they are trying to talk about as they can no longer see things objectively and just get things factually incorrect due to their emotions.

They won't even listen to what's being said as they have heard a couple of trigger words that set them off and they just shout from their default position with actually knowing what is even being talked about.



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03 Sep 2017, 6:26 am

This thread has gone off into the giggleweeds.

Locked.


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