TERF's - Feminists that don't think trans women are women

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Metal Rat
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30 Dec 2019, 9:03 am

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

Bradleigh
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30 Dec 2019, 10:19 am

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

Well, some trans men could find it easier for a while to continue to pretend to be women for a while. But you are right that they are men regardless.

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Fnord
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30 Dec 2019, 10:30 am

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

What about men who are surgically and chemically altered to look like women? I'm not talking about "Chicks with d**ks" (their words, not mine), but the full conversion -- hormone therapy, emasculation, vaginal construction, et cetera.

Well?

Sahn
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30 Dec 2019, 12:09 pm

Bradleigh wrote:

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

Well, some trans men could find it easier for a while to continue to pretend to be women for a while. But you are right that they are men regardless.

This is confusing. I've seen Anti-TERF sentiments expressed with fire and contempt towards someone who held a few naive opinions on the subject (JK Rowling TERF thread) and yet here you are agreeing that Trans women aren't women.

(And here we have an actual TERF saying the same thing)

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Quote:

Women: Um, we thought you were male people who had to transition to help with your dysphoria?

Trans activists: No, that is out-dated and pathologizing. Women are women because they have a gender identity which makes them women.

Quote:

Feminists: Sorry? What?

Trans activists: You are our oppressors, you don’t get to speak. When you speak you oppress us, and it literally kills us.

Feminists: WHAT?

Fnord
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30 Dec 2019, 12:26 pm

A man in a dress is a man in a dress, plain and simple.

Comedians have been performing "in drag" for centuries, and Kabuki Theatre bases it's entire tradition on it. Neither of these practices make those men into women. It only makes them men wearing women's clothing.

Wearing a dress does not make a man a woman any more than wearing a suit and tie makes a woman a man.

Mikah
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30 Dec 2019, 2:31 pm

Fnord wrote:

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

I don't know if the South Park guys would ever make the ep in today's climate. But I wonder... is Gerald a dolphin?

Presumably the answer is yes and any one who disagrees is a bigot.

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Bravo5150
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30 Dec 2019, 2:45 pm

Mikah wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

I don't know if the South Park guys would ever make the ep in today's climate. But I wonder... is Gerald a dolphin?

Presumably the answer is yes and any one who disagrees is a bigot.

Do you have the clip of Garrison learning that it is impossible to have an abortion?

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30 Dec 2019, 3:18 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:

Do you have the clip of Garrison learning that it is impossible to have an abortion?

Seems it exists. Warning for general South Park grossness.

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The_Walrus
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30 Dec 2019, 3:24 pm

Persephone29 wrote:

This remains a fascinating subject to me. Initially, I would describe myself as non-binary. But, it's more than that. I would say that I am more gender apathy. I have really no interest. And because I have no interest it's very difficult for me to take an interest in gender, in general. I would struggle with pronouns, because I have no interest in gender.

I can look in a book, compare myself to that of an anatomical female and accept that I am one. It would not occur to me to take issue with it, because it doesn't resonate anywhere inside of me. It's simply a visible fact. I am an engine, I am housed in a make and model. As long as it gets me where I want to go, I don't care what it looks like.

I do typically wear female attire because it fits my shape. But, will buy anything that fits. Like a cat with a box: if it fits, I sits. I buy colors I like, no preference as to what gender it might appeal to. I will wear a flannel shirt, or a flower shirt if I like the color. I will get lost in lawn equipment. I love babies. I hate dresses.

I'm still figuring this out as I go.

What you're describing sounds a lot like being agender. Many years ago, I remember another user on here, Callista, saying that they struggled to fully understand the trans experience because as an agender person they didn't have a strong gender identity and couldn't imagine being "in the wrong body".

(though I should note that some agender people would describe themselves as trans)

Bradleigh
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30 Dec 2019, 6:33 pm

domineekee wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

Well, some trans men could find it easier for a while to continue to pretend to be women for a while. But you are right that they are men regardless.

No, read what I said again, I said "trans men", that is someone who was assigned female at birth but identifies as male, and perhaps had not done any transitioning yet. See, I knew that they were talking about trans women in saying they were not women, but decided to be facetious to pretend the statement was more woke than it actually was, reading intent in Metal Rat's words that would probably annoy them.

And now you got me to explain my joke, thanks for that.

Fnord wrote:

So you are saying that drag exists, and that does not make them the other gender? Do you wonder if perhaps you are uneducated on the subject? It is not about their clothes, it is in a trans person's brain, they are perfectly sane people that just don't feel comfortable as the gender that matches their sex, because sex and gender are not the same thing. Clothes are simply a way to help express their gender, it is not a joke, if you don't understand it listen to some people who do experience it, that is how things usually work if you don't want to come across as a bigot.

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Fnord
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30 Dec 2019, 7:58 pm

Bradleigh wrote:

Fnord wrote:

A man in a dress is a man in a dress, plain and simple. Comedians have been performing "in drag" for centuries, and Kabuki Theatre bases it's entire tradition on it. Neither of these practices make those men into women. It only makes them men wearing women's clothing. Wearing a dress does not make a man a woman any more than wearing a suit and tie makes a woman a man.

So you are saying that drag exists, and that does not make them the other gender?

That is correct.

Bradleigh wrote:

Do you wonder if perhaps you are uneducated on the subject?

Not at all. My undergrad minor was Behavioral Psychology. We studied this.

Bradleigh wrote:

It is not about their clothes...

Then we agree.

Bradleigh wrote:

... if you don't want to come across as a bigot.

I do not come across as a bigot, except to those who take issue with independent and rational thought.

kraftiekortie
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30 Dec 2019, 8:00 pm

There is such thing as men dressing in drag----and that man thinking he's a man, and even that he's heterosexual.

TwilightPrincess
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30 Dec 2019, 8:03 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

There is such thing as men dressing in drag----and that man thinking he's a man, and even that he's heterosexual.

Unless he’s in a comedy skit.

Of course, why can’t a man think he’s a man while wearing high heels? He still has a penis. If he identifies as a woman, he’s a woman unless he still wants to be a man.

Bradleigh
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30 Dec 2019, 8:45 pm

Fnord wrote:

I do not come across as a bigot, except to those who take issue with independent and rational thought.

You compared transgender people to drag comedy and kabuki theatre. You are taking this discussion to the history of theatre including in the likes of historical performances of Shakespeare plays when women were not allowed to act at all and men filled in all roles?

I can't really comment on your undergrad minor of behavioral psychology, I don't know when you completed it or understand how thorough it was, or up to date accurate. But if you are going to use it as justification for beliefs that trans people are just confused or worse, then I am going to feel comfortable seeing you as a bigot.

Your statement about people having issue with "independent and rational though" means very little if you are ignoring the individual experiences, and keeping to beliefs that ignore facts out of irrational fears.

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Sahn
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30 Dec 2019, 8:54 pm

Bradleigh wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

Metal Rat wrote:

Men dressed up as women, are not women!

Well, some trans men could find it easier for a while to continue to pretend to be women for a while. But you are right that they are men regardless.

Oh I see. Sorry for ruining your joke and thanks for your patience.

Bradleigh
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30 Dec 2019, 9:26 pm

domineekee wrote:

Oh I see. Sorry for ruining your joke and thanks for your patience.

All good, tone does not come across easy in writing, and would be easy to pass over something as a misspelling. I should probably apologise if I came across offended, because I wasn't, was just a dumb attempt to set up another joke like pretending like it was some offense when really it is nothing. Again does not really work in written form and people can get serious about the weirdest things.

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