Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?

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For something like South Africa's and Israel's arguments to the ICJ, I'd rather read transcripts than watch videos. For my own future reference, here they are, from an Australian-based website called "New Matilda":

- ICJ TRANSCRIPT: Opening South African Address Alleging Genocide In Gaza By Israel
- ICJ TRANSCRIPT: Opening Israeli Address Denying South African Charges Of Genocide In Gaza

CONTENT WARNING: The transcript of South Africa's opening address contains a link to an age-restricted YouTube video, which was not transcribed. The video's title, on the YouTube channel of New Matilda, is "Starving Gazans Swamp Aid Trucks - South African presentation to International Court Of Justice."

According to the description on YouTube: "This video was played during the opening statement from South Africa in its case brought to the International Court of Justice alleging Israel has engaged in genocide in its ongoing assault on Gaza."

I haven't watched it yet, but no doubt the video is "age-restricted" for good reasons. I'm sure this will be highly disturbing stuff.

See also the separate thread South Africa files genocide case against Israel at Internati.

See also the separate thread Why raping Palestinians is legitimate Israeli military practice.

Looks like the Israeli military, despite endless pretense to the contrary, has been as bad as Hamas w.r.t. sexual violence after all.

This thread is one of a bunch of threads I created about the Israel/Palestine situation and related matters back in late 2023 and early 2024, during a time when I was obsessed with learning as much as I could about Israel/Palestine.

Other threads I created during that time are:

- What life is like for Palestinians
- Palestine/Israel: 2-state solution vs. 1 binational state?
- Israel/Palestine -- how could a one-state solution work?
- Critiques of Zionism by Jews
- Palestinian Christians
- Christian Zionism
- Israeli settler support infrastructure here in the U.S.A.
- Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism
- Hezbollah and its intentions and capabilities?
- Elon Musk: Free speech for neo-Nazis but not Palestinians
- The hostage posters
- Negev Bedouins - caught in crossfire between Israel & Hamas
- Changes in how Palestinians/Arabs talk about Jews
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof

During the time I was creating those threads, I learned a lot about how awful the situation of Palestinians has been for lo these many decades. Here in the U.S.A., most people -- myself included -- have been pretty effectively shielded from learning about this throughout most of my lifetime.

At the same time, I am also concerned about the safety of some Jews I know who live in Israel, specifically my partner's mother and stepfather.

Rashid Khalidi: This genocide 'worse than any phase of Palestinian history' | UpFront - Al Jazeera, Nov 29, 2024.

From the description on YouTube:

(This particular video is not allowed to be viewed via other websites.)

Thread about Biden seen leaving a bookstore with a copy of the book

I feel like the strongest evidence against any sort of genocidal intent is simply that they haven't done it, and have in fact fought a limited war using sophisticated weapons to attack a foe that hides among civilians.

This seems to be yet another case of the progressive language game, attempting to attach a word with deep resonance to a situation it doesn't apply to, in order to create a response without actually doing the work of convincing people. All that's really being accomplished is the debasement of the word "genocide", soon to join "fascist" on the pile of words that don't actually mean anything anymore.

What if all these problems were planned long ago? I read something decades ago that, at the time, seemed far fetched but in todays light seems very possible.

Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871

Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening. That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.




While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.

The document begins as follows:


Sounds to me like this alleged letter is most likely a hoax. Here is a relevant Reddit thread in r/AskHistorians.


"Supposedly" written before WW1. More likely, written more recently.

Grand conspiracy theories of history are not only unlikely, but also harmful. Please see the following threads here on WP:

- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof

Israel's behavior in Gaza this past year has been absolutely horrible. We need to continue building, here in the U.S.A., a mass movement against our government's unconditional support for Israel. To that end, the facts alone are horrible enough. No need to clutter the issue with grand conspiracy claims.

Genocide doesn't usually happen all at once. At this point, IMO, enough civilians have been killed for the Gaza "limited war" to qualify as genocide-in-progress, especially given how one-sided the war has been (i.e., only a very tiny number of Israeli casualties compared to the number of Gazans killed).

If Israel really didn't want to kill so many people or destroy so much civilian infrastructure, they could easily have found ways to avoid doing so. For example, they could have focused on doing just the following:

- 1) Blowing up the tunnels under the Philadelphi corridor (between Gaza and Egypt), thereby giving Israel 100% control over all traffic into and out of Gaza.
- 2) Assassinating Hamas top brass (something they eventually got around to doing anyway). Given Israel's control over everything that comes into Gaza, Israel could easily have smuggled in all manner of Trojan horse devices, including both hi-tech spying devices, of various kinds, and things similar to the exploding pages that were sold to Hezbollah.

No need to smash up so much of northern and central Gaza.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 30 Nov 2024, 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A lopsided war, provoked by the side on the losing end, is not a genocide. There is no intent, and the Israelis certainly have the capability, which they've had for a long time and could have exercised at any point if they'd had the desire to. After all the terrorism and wars, I'm surprised they've been as patient as they have been.

Really? How do you interpret Netanyahu's "Amalek" references, for example?

I made no claims, in fact I mentioned my initial doubts and ended my post acknowledging the very real possibility that the letter was faked. I merely asked a legitimate question; what if it isn't. How much do you truly know about the history of Albert Pike and his role in freemasonry or Giuseppe Mazzini and his role as director of the Illuminati? Most people know little to nothing about these men and their roles in shaping the world during their lives.

I first read this over 20 years ago, and back then I recognized that there was a very real possibility that it was made up. Someone could have written it after WW2. That being said, knowing what I do about Pike and Mazzini, I also recognize that there is an equal chance that it is very real. Things are happening in todays world that appear to be following the blueprint laid out in the letter in regards to WW3. Trust me, I hope it is a fake but my own personal research has me thinking it very well might be a real plan after all.

To ShwaggyD:

If you want to discuss these (or any other) conspiracy theories further, please do so in a separate new thread devoted to that specific topic.

This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.

You are falsely assuming they had the level of intelligence in Gaza that they had in Lebanon and Iran. Hamas was both written off as something that could be managed and were part of Netenyahu’s plan to prevent a Palestinian State by having two separate Palestinian governments separated by land. Since the 2006 war Hezbollah and Iran were always the priorities. From top to bottom they believed that Hamas had no capability or wish to invade Israel. That continued despite a year of so of warnings from female lookouts.

It was Hamas that had the intelligence on the Gaza envelope. Netanyahu as part of his plan allowed workers from Gaza in. That part of Israel was one of the most left wing and idealistic parts of Israel. It was a throwback to the original Israel. The kibbutz were what we call communes. By hiring workers from Gaza the locals naively believed they were helping build a long term peace. In reality they were being played by Netanyahu and Hamas. Those workers provided the intelligence that led to 10/7 being so effective.

Once October 7th happened Israel was f****d no matter what they did. Decades of building deterrence was out the window. Deterrence meant deterrence against Hezbollah and Iran and it meant Israelis would feel safe in all areas of Israel. They could have built a better defense and took incoming fire until such time as a proper defense was established. That would have provided no deterrence. They could have done what they always been doing limited war intended to put uppity Hamas in its place. That would have been the worst of both worlds Israel would have been pillared anyway and deterrence not reestablished. Another option is what the defense minister Gallant wanted to do. Take care of Hezbollah and Iran first and assume Hamas would be frightened into surrendering. That would have parallels to what America did after 9/11 attack Iraq for what the Saudis did. Israel chose the option they did. Deterrence arguably reestablished(I think so but the next few weeks will determine that), Israel on its way to becoming a pariah state.

An argument can be made that the world wide explosion of anti zionism and concurrent antisemitism would have happened anyway as it was 10/7 not the retaliation that sparked it. The George Floyd protests and “woke ideology” or whatever you want to call it set the stage.

Are then tens of thousands of civilian Gaza deaths the result of collateral damage, ethnic cleansing, or genocide? We know the right wing of Netenyahu’s coalition that he is dependent on favors at least ethnic cleansing. What is yet to be determined is if the members of Israeli war cabinet or the IDF brass had as a main or the main goal killing or cleansing Palestinian civilians. Again I am no international law expert but the legal authorities going after Israel are largely making their case based on results not intent.

The picture I painted above does not fall into the neat simplistic, Americanized arguments of Israel was defending itself vs Israel are Nazis acting like Nazis. Even if the main goal was not killing civilians they made the decision knowing that in such a crowded place(a place they had a part in creating) carpet bombing was going to kill a massive amount of noncombatants.