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Pandora
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23 Nov 2007, 11:18 am

Just another one of the apathists in our society?

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Awesomelyglorious
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23 Nov 2007, 12:52 pm

Pandora wrote:

Just another one of the apathists in our society?

Perhaps, but not exactly. I don't think that controlling society is a good idea. To make my point I am using the negative claim that it can't be done rather than a positive claim because negative claims would be more effective in this case.

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24 Nov 2007, 6:49 pm

Society will always be controlled. Whether it be by a strict contingency of police and regulations, religious moral-repricussions of the afterlife, or social ostracization through means of slander and/ or heinous-incongruent stigmatization. The means can be contrived if you find the right minds!

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25 Nov 2007, 12:57 am

Averick wrote:

The only thing is that only some of these methods can truly be considered control. The fact of the matter is that religion and social ostracization cannot force people to do things or act in certain ways necessarily so we have issues of softer influence vs harder control. To say that society will be influenced is one argument, and I do not deny that society is influenced, but without coercion we do not have control.

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28 Nov 2007, 7:55 pm

What is considered coercion? I thought that laws were a form of coercion.

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28 Nov 2007, 7:56 pm

Averick wrote:

What is considered coercion? I thought that laws were a form of coercion.

Laws are, that's why I don't like 'em much.

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28 Nov 2007, 8:01 pm

So, therefore, society is controlled. Do you believe in freewill? Does this in fact exist?

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28 Nov 2007, 8:05 pm

Averick wrote:

So, therefore, society is controlled. Do you believe in freewill? Does this in fact exist?

Um.... ok? Did I say that I was a fan of most of these laws? No. I said I did not like controlling society, which means that I would like less laws. Less laws mean less control. Does the existence of free will really matter unless there is a conscious force with power over the entire body of society? I would say not from a political perspective because there would be no control over most variables. Do I even think that a society where large amounts of control exist would work? No, I don't. I think totalitarian states, which are representative of the controlled society, fail because of the inability of a single group to ever wield control over human society effectively.

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28 Nov 2007, 10:00 pm

Does anyone else think that it is funny how many things that used to be are being annhilated? (christmas, smoking in public, a woman's right, free speech etc.)

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29 Nov 2007, 1:54 pm

Averick wrote:

Does anyone else think that it is funny how many things that used to be are being annhilated? (christmas, smoking in public, a woman's right, free speech etc.)

Well, that's what happens when people are so afraid of offending anyone: society sinks to the lowest common denominator. Such a sad state of affairs and it's only going to get worst before it gets better...let's get rid of political correctness!

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Averick
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29 Nov 2007, 2:25 pm

I think i agree with you... Let's get rid of poltical correctiveness! Anyway, who decides what is correct in the public eye?

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29 Nov 2007, 4:17 pm

Averick wrote:

I think i agree with you... Let's get rid of poltical correctiveness! Anyway, who decides what is correct in the public eye?

Sadly enough the public in some twisted level. There is no single person deciding as there are churches, media groups, intellectuals, political groups, and various cultural icons. The public eye is stupid and annoying though, especially given that it addresses the most useless things. I mean, all of the things complained about are there because some groups due to their agendas seek change and do so by making a small issue bigger. *sigh* One cannot stop people from having agendas though; would any of us give up our own agendas so easily?

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29 Nov 2007, 5:09 pm

Democracy is funny that way, when the majority votes (sometimes), things get changed. I wish the majority was well-informed of all aspects for which they are about to vote. But i strongly agree that this wouldn't do much anyway, for many people in power are blind with power, and never consider insignificant details, like the common people. I don't really believe the US is a democracy anymore anyway. Then the tenous vote would count.

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29 Nov 2007, 5:38 pm

Averick wrote:

I don't mean democracy. Correctness in the public eye is cultural, not governmental from my view. I think we all wish for a well-informed majority, but even most minorities aren't well informed. In fact, I really think that a lot of bias goes into our assessments. I actually think that a more informed populace would do something significant to our system because people are still a component of power within our political system. The US was never really meant to a democracy, but I think it fits into the idea of a republic.

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29 Nov 2007, 6:38 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

I actually think that a more informed populace would do something significant to our system because people are still a component of power within our political system. The US was never really meant to a democracy, but I think it fits into the idea of a republic.

AG, you are absolutely correct in stating that the U.S. was never meant to be a direct democracy like ancient Athens, but rather a representative democracy/republic like Rome. However, I think that just like the ancient Romans, Americans are starting to become rather passive about their government. The result has been that we mostly have rich Americans representing the whole country just like wealthy landowners did in Rome. Such a disparity begs the question, "How can the rich know what someone who makes minimum wage is going through?" The answer, in my mind at least, is that one can only truly understand someone else if they have been through the similar experiences.

Also, your idea of a more informed populace mimics the words of my favorite president, Thomas Jefferson, who said that "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."

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29 Nov 2007, 8:07 pm

Plutonian_Persona wrote:

The result has been that we mostly have rich Americans representing the whole country just like wealthy landowners did in Rome.

Well, I think we have almost always had the elites in office, and I don't even think that Americans want somebody outside the elite in office even if they say that they do. We don't want a common man but an uncommon man to be president, and uncommon men are usually rich.

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Such a disparity begs the question, "How can the rich know what someone who makes minimum wage is going through?" The answer, in my mind at least, is that one can only truly understand someone else if they have been through the similar experiences.

Right, and how can an uncommon man understand a common man? If our hero will be selected then how will he recognize the nature of the common? If we select a common man then how will he be our hero? I don't really see the disparity as a solvable problem as I know I want an accomplished president and accomplishment practically equals wealth. The heritability of politics is something I care less about but still don't see as avoidable.

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Also, your idea of a more informed populace mimics the words of my favorite president, Thomas Jefferson, who said that "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."

Well, it does affect it somewhat, however, I don't think that the problem is necessarily corruption so much as just stupid policies. We sort of get the government we ask for, even though it is messy on the fringes. I see the ability of politicians to act freely as more often being helpful than harmful as I don't trust our voters to know as much as our politicians.

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