To all who say there is a god...

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Once you find him, you have your own proof of his existence, but its not the sort of proof you can show another person, sort of like telling somebody a stove is hot, they can either belive you, or put thier own hand on the stove to prove it to themselves.

What the proof is, is the feeling of The Holy Spirit you get from God, sort of like he's hugging you from the inside, a feeling I never had before untill one day whilst reading a most tedious part of the Bible, (Numbers), God must have decided I really wanted to find him.

Prayers being answered as well, whilst not proof, certainly help with faith.

I had no knowledge of my Fathers whereabouts whom I hadnt seen since I was 18 months old.

One night I asked God, "Wheres my Father?, why cant I have a Father like other people?"
The very next morning the Girl opposite me at work had nothing to do so she said, "whos name do you want me to look up"?, (on client file, a system I didnt even know we had in the 1 year I worked at this insurance company), I said my Fathers name, she typed it in, and there he was, I shortly met my Father for the first time in 26 years.

Co-incidence?, maybe, but theres a lot of them.

i used to believe in god, but everytime I asked for help the exact opposite would come true. I prayed for my cats safety for the first time in my life - it was that night he was hit by a car. Everytime I prayed to be kept safe in the morning, I'd end being attacked by mom in the evening. What does that mean about gods feelings toward me, assuming he does in fact exist?

Iam sorry to hear that Triangular-Trees.

Allthough God has answered lots of my prayers, at the same time, bad things can also happen, you only have to read the book of Job to see the challenge Satan sets worshippers of God.
He doesnt want anybody to worship God, so he can arrange for bad things to happen to convince you that you are better off without God.

Jesus said, whoever wants to save his soul will lose it, whoever is willing to lose his soul for my sake will save it, so the test is, do we Love God enough to put him before even our own lives?

God is not like a Geni of the lamp to serve us for worshipping him.
But he does promise, whatever we lose, or bad thing happen to us for serving him, we will be repaid ten-fold when Gods Kingdom arrives.

The other question to ask you which you may not like is, which God where you worshipping?

The God of Abraham and the Jews, revealed himself to be a "One" God, as oppossed to the Trinity Sun God the Hebrews encountered in Egypt.
God sent his son Jesus Christ who allways said he was the son of God and here to do not his own will, but the will of his Father.

You will find however, that all the Governmnet created Christian religions worship not the mono God of the Jews, but the Trinity God of the Egyptians, sure they might stick the label Jesus on the religion, but peel off the label and look behind it, where you will find Babylonian and Egyptian worship of false gods.
An example being Easter with its easter eggs and easter bunnies.
Easter is Aster or Astertie, the fertility goddess, hence the eggs and bunnies.
Dec 25th is the birthday of the sun,
etc etc,
ever wondered why the pope wheres a fish head shaped hat?

No wonder Jesus said, "get away from me you workers of Lawlessness, I never knew you"

If you would Like there to be a God whom Loves you, look for him yourself, dont belive what man tells you, read the Bible to see what God tells you.

End of Topic

/Closed.

I would assume that positing a God as a transcendent entity which operated beyond assertions about normal things is intended to break the infinite regress of causes that are supposed to exist. iamnotaparakeet was using a crude version of an argument originally employed by St. Thomas Aquinas, called by him "The Argument from Causation". God is not a thing, in Aquinas' argument, He is simply the "first efficient cause", because Aquinas reasoned that such an "efficient cause" must exist.

I've read Job. Its one of the few parts of the bible I can say I know about. And all that happened to Job because God made a bet with Satan. A god who does that to his believers isn't worthy of being recognized as a god.

Prayer to an omniscient omni-benevolent god doesn’t even make sense. If God already knows exactly what’s best for us what use is it to ask for his help? If God is all knowing and it is his will to help you he will help regardless of whether you ask.

It also doesn’t make any sense that an all knowing god would want us to worship him. I mean, he already knows that he is God and he can do whatever he wills. Why does he need us to tell him how wonderful he is? It all sounds so ridiculous from God's perspective.

You continue to treat God as a person, like a king. The fact that it makes so little sense should be a dead give away that God is a much more nuanced and delicate conjecture.

What I don't get is that Christians often judge god in human terms. To give an example, when something funny or ironic (usually the later) happens, people will often say, "god must have a sense of humour". On the other side of the coin, when sceptics give reasoning such as marshall's, the same people will often respond to the effect of, "you can't judge god by human standards".

I would be one of the agnostic atheists mentioned in a post above. To me, all of the gods people have ever believed in are mere creations of Humanity. God ans gods have often been used as a method to explain phenomena that has been unexplainable or still is. It seems quite understandable to me that they might have been created partly for this reason. I won't believe in a supreme being or beings without what I see as sufficient proof of their existence. If that proof comes along one day, I will welcome it, but it doesn't mean I'll want to be a follower. I'm rather disgusted with the Judeo-Christian god and would not want to go along with him. Satan would be the lesser evil imo. I haven't been all that impressed with the gods of other religions as well.

When I read the bible I see God being described like a person, like a father figure. It seems the writers of the bible saw God as a being with thoughts and emotions just like humans.

Even the idea of a God having thoughts and emotions doesn’t make sense to me. Time is a physical construct if you study the general theory of relativity, thus God must have created time. If God created time then God must exist outside of time. How can something have thoughts or emotions without being constrained by time?

When I read Nietzsche, I see Truth described as a woman. Does Truth have breasts?

It is certainly true that many Christians hold a very crude concept of God, but my favorite philosophical principle ("the principle of charity") demands that we approach a more robust concept of Him. I would build an even mightier God than any theologian ever dreamed of, if only to knock Him down and be done for good. I think that there are consistent interpretations of the Christian God out there.

Better yet, if God can't be interpreted with in a temporal context, how can he do anything? Perhaps he is simply outside of our time, in much the same way that we can imagine being able to be outside of a virtual time in a computer world.


I think this is a matter of interpretation. To me, time is a primitive concept for the notion of consciousness, and relativity only helps us understand the flow of time in different reference frames, with respect to our own (although I have not studied relativity). Which is to say that I think that the concept of a sentient entity is dependent on time, but time is not necessarily logically equivalent to relativity.

I can't.

Now give me a proof of his inexistence.

You can't.

So, I say we go on believing or not believing in whatever we please.

Actually it doesn't. Not necessarily. It can, but only if you are disshonest with your self.
There are always some things at some times in your life which you can not "finally"/firmly attribute to any agency or cause, however much you analyse the elements, that you can not make any clearer at that moment; it doesn't mean that you stop thinking; it just means you accept that you do not know, may never know, or may know in a weeks time, but at that moment you don't and can not get a clearer idea.

Rather than filing this under "unknown" which is potentially scary, anxiety inducing, adrenalin provoking, tiring, and preoccupying, because it puts one in permanent fight-or-flight mode, the rustling in the bushes which despite all investigation and thought has remained unattributable to anything at this moment, you can choose to "believe" that it is god. And lo, can concentrate on something else, until such time as have new/more data. Or until the brain, at rest, working unconsciously on the problem, comes up with the answer.

One example of this sort of situation is the current state of knowledge about Aspergers and Autism. At the moment it is impossible to "finally" attribute agency or cause in the case of autism. Can spend a lot of time thinking it is because of this, then that, then the other one of many dozens of reasons; can keep at it, the analysis, the reading, the references, the eye open, the ear cocked, but unless are a scientist working on it can get no further. So instead of constantly experiencing myself as "me for reasons unknown, possibly contradictory, each one of which will imply different things about me and society etc", or holding to one explanation out of blind faith, I can decide to believe that i have aspergers characteristics because of god.

It doesn't stop me thinking, attributing, assigning, ascribing, cause and agency; it just makes the unknown into something positive in its own right rather than merely an absence of knowledge. And it switches off my fight or flight reaction which otherwise consumes all of my energy, attention, etc, and when running over long periods provokes lots of obsessive compulsive behaviours too.
It doesn't stop me thinking, ( attributing , assigning, and ascribing agency and cause, etc) because in fact when i am doing that that i feel most awake. Right out there seeing new perspectives. Dizzying, exhilarating, satisfying. But i need to know, and to be able to accept, when i simply CAN NOT go any further.

It reminds me of a big wall painting i worked on for months, (15 years ago now) . There began to be parts of it which i simply couldn't get right. All over the painting, large and small pieces that however i filled them in didn't work. I fiddled, and dithered, and altered, and re-altered, until one night, in the middle of the night, in a heart stopping act of recklessness, of " i have nothing to lose, because it's not working anyway as it is", I took pure red paint and simply filled in every single bit which had been driving me up the wall.
And suddenly the painting was finished. it was done, and was glorious; was probably the best thing i have ever painted too. I think believing in god is maybe a bit like that.

I don't, can't, know everything, and yet classifying what i cannot know ( at any time) as "just" the unknown does not value it. It does not admit of the unknown being as complex and rich in detail as the known, it makes it look like shadow; like a dark murky mass. When it isn't. But I have serious trouble "seeing" the unknown as anything but murk until i think "it's god".

Job. Chapter 38. " Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed" . Doesn't mean i have to stop thinking, just that i needn't be afraid of when i can't get any further any more. Because that's where god is.

NB: I'm coming from the perspective, outlined on my thread "Believe in Aliens Instead of God", which proposes that religious belief is an accidental side effect of developments in cognitive function during the last 50,000 years, concerned with attributing agency and cause to things, which was an important factor in survival, but which when overactive, "overgrown", practically "creates" religious belief. I'm one of these dysfunctional people!!

Realise, ... i'm very slow, ... that I'm surrounded by the unknown. Most people, for instance, seem like total murk, deep dark shadows of the unknown, who might aswell be zombies for the effect they have on me.
The inside of my body. etc etc
The "unknown" is everywhere.
To go very far in any one direction has been like a spearhead movement, advancing far ahead of the rest of my forces, going into the dark with the unknown on all sides. Scary. Having to keep alert, attributing agency and cause for everything along the way. The unknown as hostile/enemy territory to be infiltrated, invaded, colonised. Whereas if it's god, i am no longer in a combat situation. The unknown is no longer something to fight, but to make contact with.

I've been living like someone under seige, or all alone in enemy territory. Jittery. Don't know what effect this new perspective will have; will see!! Interesting though!

What is it someone ( Twoshots) said, that Thomas Aquinas said, ... that god was the "first efficient cause" ? That's almost exactly what i mean about religious belief and the tendency in some people to attribute agency and cause constantly, which is exhausting and disabling, if there is no "first efficient cause" to account for all the times that can't do it, ascribe cause/agency/etc, sufficiently to relax. After all, who here knows everything? How could anyone know everything? As God is described as saying in Job CH 38;."do you know...?.. were you there when?... do you know when?... do you know how many?... etc. For people driven to attribute agency and cause this is perhaps an agonising state to be in, without "god".

This post is long, but you should read the whole thing. It will open your eyes. I am not biased, as I am a former athiest.

I don't think human beings are meant to understand or know what God is.

To prove the existence of God is impossible, because science does not explain anything. We cannot even understand why we sleep at night. Of the thousands of years of the best and brightest humans dedicating their lives to science, we cannot even understand the simplest of things on earth, like what sleep is! How can you ask, based on this same scientific model, what God is and where he came from?

There's no right answer to your question, because proving God by using the mere trivial and flawed scientific methods of Humans is impossible.

How do we know what oxygen is, if our understanding of molecules is flawed? The entire scientific theory about EVERYTHING can fall apart if even the slightest basic element is incorrect. Even the most basic scientific elements may not be true -- simply because as Humans we cannot comprehend them, or see them in a different dimension or in some other way that we are not physically able to! It might seem right to us, but how do we know, if the ones who created the theories, are also judging the answers?

Who decided that Humans can see everything from every angle? What if we are not built to understand everything? We think we are the top of the chain...but how do we know that?

There's not too much we know. We like to THINK we do, but in the end, we don't know much of anything at all. How do we even know how much we can comprehend if all we know is what we think is true?

How are we to know who created God? Much less ask for proof. And proof based on what? Human theories that are deemed correct by other Humans?

Even the Great White Shark in it's superiority in the ocean, does not know there is life above water. It thinks it rules the ocean, and knows all. Science is based off of humans believing we know everything on earth. How do we even know if earth is real, or if this dimension is real? How do we know what a dimension is? How do we know what's beyond this earth? Because of some math formulas and because we put some puzzle pieces together that we think is correct? If we are solely the ones who judge what is scientifically right, who tells us we are wrong? No one. So we continue researching and believing, not truly knowing if what we discover is real.

Just because we don't understand something, does that mean we aren't meant to understand? Or does it mean that can we understand everything, but with the help of science?

How can you ask such grand questions such as the existence of God, when science cannot even explain why we sleep, or why we dream?

It's ignorant to think humans know everything, and can prove it scientifically. There are certain things we are not meant to understand and that our brains can't understand, no matter how hard we try. We can't even cure the common cold, and you're trying to use science to prove a God?

So to answer your question, God can't be proven. It's only a matter of faith, that individual people experience that can't be chalked up to coincidence or good timing. It's our individual life experiences and tragedies and a hope for something good in a world full of nothing but evil. Only the most sheltered people say we live in a world of "good." The truth; we live in a world of EVIL, greed, corruption, poverty, hunger and death.

God is the light at the end of that tunnel.

Science and religion are equal in that both are not provable. We accept science because Humans judge what is right...but how do us mere Humans know what's right and wrong? With religion, we have something inside our hearts and minds, like sleep, which cannot be explained scientifically, but we know it's there.

I refuse to believe that all of this...the earth, the water...is all a coincidence or some random cosmic event that occurred billions of years ago. The next smartest species under Human Beings can, if it concentrates hard enough, break open a coconut using a rock. Us Humans, on the other hand, can fly into outer space and shoot laser breams into eyeballs and reshape corneas. How can you believe the huge gap between humans and animals are coincidental? Is it so hard to believe we weren't an accident?

It's not scientific. It's faith.

Your question will never go answered because the basic element of being a human, is flawed.

Not everything is scientific and black and white. The day when we understand the science behind every single element in the universe and beyond, will be the day we can even begin to comprehend the idea of God, our creator.

We can't cure "the common cold" because it evolves, much likes other diseases that are making a come back. And because it proves evolution the Bible is more or less disproved as a literal interpretation of "Gods Word" destroying your arguement with one mighty sentence.

Btw your understanding of Science is flawed, might want to upgrade your 19th century info.