Jury Duty is slavery!

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ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 7:21 pm

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.

The obligation is to pay taxes due under the law.

ruveyn

Your total concern for money and total unconcern for civil interaction is obvious.

I merely stated a fact. Apparently one of the taxes a citizen owes is involuntary servitude (jury duty is a special case) which is illegal under the 13th amendment except as punishment for a crime in which the person suffering servitude is convicted. We got rid of the draft. It is time to get rid of compulsory jury duty and replace it with voluntary jury service. We don't draft soldiers and police; why draft citizens into jury duty?

My only obligation as a citizen is to pay taxes and to obey the laws. Some of the laws are unjust, such as laws compelling jury duty.

As to civil interactions: I record for the blind (as a volunteer) and I donate platelets (as a volunteer). My motives are purely egotistical. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob melt me down into a puddle of smoking grease if I ever do anything for altruistic reasons. You will notice I do not compel people to record books for the blind nor do I compel people to donate their blood. I think such socially useful acts should be purely voluntary.

I do socially useful things because it suits me to do them, not because I owe any duty.

ruveyn

psychohist
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17 Nov 2010, 11:43 pm

Sand wrote:

You cannot bribe people to be honest. Just look at politicians who live by bribery. They are the most dishonest people on the planet aside from bankers.

That is, indeed, my point. Since you can't force jurors to be honest, the least you can do is avoid career jurors who have had the time to perfect dishonesty.

Your other argument, that people should be willing slaves in the case of jury duty, is irrelevant: whether or not the slaves are willing, neither government nor anyone else should be a slaveholder.

Sand
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18 Nov 2010, 4:10 am

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

You cannot bribe people to be honest. Just look at politicians who live by bribery. They are the most dishonest people on the planet aside from bankers.

This broad use of the concept of slavery is, frankly, pretty dumb. Is it slavery that you must drive on the right side of the road (in most countries) and do you demand payment for that? There are certain requirements that a social system imposes to make it work. That is a far cry from slavery.

ruveyn
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18 Nov 2010, 9:00 am

[quote="Sand"

This broad use of the concept of slavery is, frankly, pretty dumb. Is it slavery that you must drive on the right side of the road (in most countries) and do you demand payment for that? There are certain requirements that a social system imposes to make it work. That is a far cry from slavery.[/quote]

Driving on the right (or left) is not slavery. It is a convention, and a necessary one to prevent the roads from becoming chaotic. If one does not drive, one does not have to observe the convention (which is enforced by Law). One cannot be compelled to drive.

Shame on you for thinking in such a sloppy fashion.

ruveyn

Sand
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18 Nov 2010, 9:03 am

ruveyn wrote:

Driving on the right (or left) is not slavery. It is a convention, and a necessary one to prevent the roads from becoming chaotic. If one does not drive, one does not have to observe the convention (which is enforced by Law). One cannot be compelled to drive.

Shame on you for thinking in such a sloppy fashion.

ruveyn[/quote]

On the contrary, it is a restriction on your behavior to make things work, just like jury duty.

ruveyn
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18 Nov 2010, 9:05 am

Sand wrote:

On the contrary, it is a restriction on your behavior to make things work, just like jury duty.

What is your opinion on drafting policemen or soldiers?

Perhaps we should not use the loaded term - slavery. How about involuntary servitude, which is outlawed by the thirteenth amendment, U.S. Constitution excepts as a penalty for a crime in which the party was properly convicted under due processes of law.

Whatever else jury duty is, it is involuntary servitude. The penalty for not showing up when summoned to the venire is wither contempt of court or a stiff monetary fine. That does not leave an unarmed citizen much wiggle room. The choice is clear: show up or be up to your chin in legal sh*t.

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 18 Nov 2010, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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18 Nov 2010, 9:46 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

On the contrary, it is a restriction on your behavior to make things work, just like jury duty.

What is your opinion on drafting policemen or soldiers?

ruveyn

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done. If you don't give a damn about the system and don't care if it collapses then you should pull out and live in the woods.

ruveyn
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18 Nov 2010, 9:49 am

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

On the contrary, it is a restriction on your behavior to make things work, just like jury duty.

What is your opinion on drafting policemen or soldiers?

ruveyn

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done. If you don't give a damn about the system and don't care if it collapses then you should pull out and live in the woods.

How about living right where I am where I have a RIGHT to live.

Apparently you have no principled objection to the Tzar's Army where men were drafted for twenty five years, a virtual life sentence in those days. If society needs something, let it be taken from individuals, by force, if necessary. Is that it?

You have a rather high tolerance for tyranny apparently.

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Sand
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18 Nov 2010, 10:44 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

On the contrary, it is a restriction on your behavior to make things work, just like jury duty.

What is your opinion on drafting policemen or soldiers?

ruveyn

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done. If you don't give a damn about the system and don't care if it collapses then you should pull out and live in the woods.

For a guy who has claim to some mental capacity the ploy of zooming to extremes is rather childish. There is no Tsar under a democracy and the government policies are decided in ways other than the whim of a tyrant. Do you consider it slavery when you pay an insurance policy and you get nothing in return but a promise to help you if you're in trouble? That's what jury duty is. You may never need a jury but when you do, your service pays for the chance you get when you're in trouble.

psychohist
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18 Nov 2010, 12:00 pm

Sand wrote:

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done.

That's exactly how the South justified slavery - excuse me, "involuntary servitude" since we're being politically correct - of negros before the civil war.

visagrunt
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18 Nov 2010, 12:10 pm

Well, certainly a voluntary jury is an ideal, but will that suffice to provide the number of jurors required by the Courts to adjudicate those matters coming before it? I am not persuaded that it will.

Since an essential prerequisite of any reform to the jury system must be that it continue to be demonstrably functional, I think that is a solid strike against it.

Eliminate juries for civil trials other than defamation and I think you would be well on your way to a workable system.

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number5
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18 Nov 2010, 1:20 pm

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done.

That's exactly how the South justified slavery - excuse me, "involuntary servitude" since we're being politically correct - of negros before the civil war.

I'm truly baffled by your notion that jury duty is in any way even close to slavery. We're talking about having to make a phone call to see if your services are needed for up to a week once every several years or so. I have been called for jury duty 3 times so far in my life and have served a total of 8 hours, for which I was paid. Hardly a torturous experience. It's not even apples and oranges - more like apples and shoes. The comparison is beyond far-fetched.

ruveyn
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18 Nov 2010, 3:06 pm

number5 wrote:

I'm truly baffled by your notion that jury duty is in any way even close to slavery. .

It is involuntary service. The Juror or prospective Juror is ordered to be at a certain place at a certain time or legal consequences will follow if he does not obey. It is not cotton picking slavery complete with Simon Legree and the Lash but it is involuntary servitude which is outlawed by the 13th amendment in the U.S..

ruveyn

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18 Nov 2010, 3:18 pm

number5 wrote:

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

If the system needs that to make it function properly then it must be done.

That's exactly how the South justified slavery - excuse me, "involuntary servitude" since we're being politically correct - of negros before the civil war.

Suppose you did not feel like showing up for the venire? Do you enjoy being told to be at a certain place at a certain time by people who have no right to order you around?

ruveyn

visagrunt
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18 Nov 2010, 3:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Suppose you did not feel like showing up for the venire? Do you enjoy being told to be at a certain place at a certain time by people who have no right to order you around?

ruveyn

Enough. This is a question of law long since settled.

The court and its officers have every right. The legislature has created statutory authority that confers this right upon them.

If subjected to a summons you are perfectly free to question the constitutionality of that legislation, but until such time as a court of competent jurisdiction makes that declaration the statute is presumed to be infra vires and of full force and effect.

The matter has already been tried, before no less a forum than the Supreme Court of the United States: Butler v. Perry (1916) 240 U.S. 328 (S.C.) You may suppose that you have a superior interpretation of relevant law, but it has no merit until the Supreme Court sees fit to reverse itself.

Good luck with that.

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psychohist
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18 Nov 2010, 3:55 pm

number5 wrote:

I have been called for jury duty 3 times so far in my life and have served a total of 8 hours, for which I was paid.

You might want to follow the thread. Sand is specifically arguing against my suggestion that jury duty be paid. I was the one advocating payment. Hopefully that will help resolve your bafflement.

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