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Averick
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21 Aug 2008, 5:15 pm

Isn't predestination like fatalism?

Orwell
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21 Aug 2008, 5:53 pm

Averick wrote:

Isn't predestination like fatalism?

It can seem to be, but not quite. Fatalism is the idea that, since we are bound by fate, we should make no attempt or effort at changing the world, improving our lives, etc. However, Calvinism, the subset of Protestant theology that most fully embraced Predestination, gave rise to the famed Protestant work ethic, so clearly one need not be a fatalist to believe in Predestination.

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Averick
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21 Aug 2008, 5:57 pm

Orwell wrote:

Averick wrote:

Isn't predestination like fatalism?

What does this famed work ethic that protestants admire so much involve?

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21 Aug 2008, 6:16 pm

Averick wrote:

What does this famed work ethic that protestants admire so much involve?

The stereotypical Protestant combines hard work and thrift. Actually, my Western Civ book credits the Protestant work ethic for England's success and growth, and the lack of it for the fall of the Spanish empire.

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21 Aug 2008, 6:16 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Christianity is irrational
Therefore rational christians = contradiction in terms
Therefore Orwell and Toad of Steel cannot be christians and could conceivably be atheist :wink:

Ever hear of an oxymoron? Two words or phrases that seemingly have opposite meaning but when put together mean something new

We have the word Foxymoron in Australia. It's like a "chav", only female.

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21 Aug 2008, 6:19 pm

I don't know that the Protestant work ethic, originates in Protestantism. I think there's a substantial history of that thinking in catholicism, coming from a salvation through works POV.

It's also a 'common sense' thing - Keep 'em busy cos it keeps 'em out of trouble. probably pre-dates 'religion'.

Last edited by Postperson on 21 Aug 2008, 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Averick
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21 Aug 2008, 6:29 pm

Orwell wrote:

Averick wrote:

What does this famed work ethic that protestants admire so much involve?

So basically it's hardwork with an optimistic vibe due to the reinventation of religion.
Ok, cool. Continue.

BTW, I come from Calvanist on my mom's side, apparently.

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21 Aug 2008, 7:07 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Christianity is irrational
Therefore rational christians = contradiction in terms
Therefore Orwell and Toad of Steel cannot be christians and could conceivably be atheist :wink:

Ever hear of an oxymoron? Two words or phrases that seemingly have opposite meaning but when put together mean something new

Ah well my hypothesis was fun while it lasted. :twisted:

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21 Aug 2008, 7:15 pm

Postperson wrote:

I think that the reason for the Protestant work ethic is because of the concern with the life past this one as opposed to worldly pleasures, and because success in life could be taken as proof of salvation. I think that most protestants are against salvation through works rather strongly though.

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21 Aug 2008, 7:55 pm

Postperson wrote:

I don't know that the Protestant work ethic, originates in Protestantism. I think there's a substantial history of that thinking in catholicism, coming from a salvation through works POV.

DISCLAIMER: I'm only going to be speaking in stereotypes and generalities in this post. Nothing I say herein about any group is universally applicable to all members of that group, it is only a stereotype.

Now that that's out of the way; Catholics are known to be heavy drinkers. Especially the Irish, who are predominantly Catholic. Catholicism does have somewhat more of a works-based theology, but that isn't the same thing as a culture valuing hard work- rather, Catholics believe that you have to go and have your sins forgiven by a priest, and such. Protestants tend to favor faith-based salvation much more, but the Protestant culture also happens to promote hard work. Whereas Catholics want to get done with their day and head off to the local bar/pub for a few pints, Protestants will do their job diligently and try to advance, all the while spending their money more carefully and not wasting it.

Also, Catholic theology often considered ambition to be one of the greatest sins. To desire more than one had was ambitious and thus sinful, and so there should be no reason to work so hard, or to save money so carefully.

Man, I'm going to get flamed so badly for this post. Oh well.

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21 Aug 2008, 9:56 pm

:lol:

hmm I have known a lot of both catholics and alcoholics, it seems plausible, but I think it's a form of gluttony, so anyone can be a glutton. Maoris, Australians and Norwegians are associated with the stuff too. It would be interesting to see some statistics.

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21 Aug 2008, 10:05 pm

but anyway, back to work ethics, yeah there's a very different philosophy to work in catholicism and protestantism. I take your point about that.

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23 Aug 2008, 2:57 am

Really? I come from some hard-working catholics, hope you know.
Unfortunately, except for my mom. LOL

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23 Aug 2008, 4:13 pm

Once a guy went over to Ramana Maharshi (I know you probably don't know who he is, but just categorize him as "this authority") and asked:
"You know after meditating for those 4 years, it seems to me that what happens has to happen and what shalle never happen will never happen"

Ramana looked at him and said, as if to a young infantile child

"Obviously"

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24 Aug 2008, 4:07 pm

Predestination is a f*****g abhorrent doctrine.

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26 Aug 2008, 7:32 pm

Delirium wrote:

Predestination is a f***ing abhorrent doctrine.

I'm a really strong believer in Causality which I see as applying Schroedinger's Cat to the theory of Predestination. It's the practical understanding of a moot point. Yet in the majority of religious dogma I'd agree it's used as an excuse for and against the status quo for those that write it.

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