I'm a Muslim!

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You made a claim that you know what doesn't exist. I can understand you being skeptical because you've seen no evidence, but that doesn't negate my subjective evidence, or anyone else's subjective evidence. I'm not claiming absolute certainty that there is a God, but you ARE claiming what appears to be absolute certainty that there isn't one. That is balony, illogical and unscientific. If you don't know, because there's no evidence, then you don't know. To claim knowledge where there is merely lack of evidence is as arrogant as it would be for me to claim absolute knowledge that you're going to Hell or the Elysian Fields or Valhalla after you die. I don't know -- neither do you.

I don't claim any victim status because I've never felt the need to prove God to anyone. He proved Himself to me to my satisfaction. If He wants to, He can prove Himself to you -- He doesn't need me to. And if I'm wrong, and God is a figment of my imagination, so what? It's made me happy to believe.

So the ball is in your court. You made a statement of "fact" based on non-evidence. (At least that's what it looked like.)

As for who has the "real" God -- I tend to believe that we all do, at least those who serve Him by making the world better for those who share it.

well...good for you (original post...about 6 pages back or so)

I believe that if I don't make trouble for Muslims (or Sihks, Buddhists, Mormons, Baha'i, Shinto, Pagan (Roman for 'country folk'...or rednecks..., they won't make trouble for me.

I can't prove the existence of God, however, I can't disprove it, either...

I see some people as seeing no difference between fundamentalists; whether Christian or Muslim. Howevr, when they also hold that fundamentalists are the only kind of believers, then we have misunderstandings.

I hold that God is the 'answer' for things we have no answer for, as of yet. Until we have better evidence, it'll have to do...for those who need it.

well, we could always call it the 'x factor' and solve the universe for X...whatever floats yer boat...

"again, you're the one defending the claim that there is something: PROVE IT.


i've already seen that you can't. that's why i say that i know. because if there is a god, it's not the ones that you people pray to. that much is obvious."

Reread what I've posted. What I'm defending is a) my subjective experience is "evidence" whether you can see it or not and b) you are arrogant to assume that your view of the evidence about God is the only valid view to have. No, I'm really not defending the claim that there is something, what I'm defending is that each person perceives the world in their own, equally valid, ways. For you to discount every bit of evidence I have for God as invalid simply because it's subjective is, as slowmutant put it, intellectually dishonest. The truth is you DON'T know. You're pretty sure, and there may even be good reason for a degree of certainty, but you don't KNOW. For centuries people (including scientists) KNEW that the sun orbited the earth. For decades doctors KNEW that chicken soup helping with colds was a wives tale. There are plenty of things people KNOW that are wrong, pure and simple. If you think you hold the absolute truth as far as the existence of a deity then you are arrogant and delusional, whether your belief is pro-diety or against it. Yes, I believe in God. Yes, I know I could be wrong. You, however, don't seem to be willing to face the uncertainty in life. That's your issue, though, not mine.

Why not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIllRdSzSug

“no it isn't. especially on a topic so far reaching as religion: subjective experience is not evidence. it can be used as evidence for diminished responsibility...but then again, i guess that's all god really is for people. an excuse.”

An excuse for what? You are arguing God with me and I’m arguing an arrogant attitude on your part. You keep trying to twist it around to “God isn’t real.” and I’m just pointing out that you are not being honest about not knowing. And please, please, please prove to me that subjective evidence is not evidence. I’m not trying to convert you to a belief in anything, I’m just pointing out that your argument is pretty hypocritical. “I know what isn’t out there. I have no more proof of what I think isn’t out there than you do of what you think IS out there, but I’m right and you’re wrong.” I could be wrong, however I’m honest enough to admit that.

“appeal to ignorance. i don't know what the final answer is so i'm obviously wrong making your wrong answer right regardless of the lack of evidence. “

My wrong answer to what? I haven’t given any answers that I know of.

“i'm interested in being correct, not right. righteousness is religion's faulty turf.”

If your interested in being correct then don’t limit your options. Discoveries aren’t made through closed minds. I also haven’t brought up any righteousness issues – those are purely your own manufacture. You seem to be trying to pick a fight with a simple statement – “You don’t KNOW what might exist in an infinite universe. To declare absolute knowledge based on lack of evidence is small minded and intellectually dishonest.” So if you want to be correct, be honest. You don’t THINK any deity exists, but you don’t know. I do think a deity exists, but I also don’t KNOW.