Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed?

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Mike1
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27 Aug 2012, 1:51 pm

slave wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
In the year 325 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of wise men from Italy, Greece, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and other nearby countries to invent a religion to replace Paganism and create a more moral society. There were a total of 1,786 scholars, scribes, and religious teachers. They brought with them 2,231 books about gods, saviors, and other great men. 62 gods existed at the time, and about 60 saviors. By ballot, the god 'Kriste' was selected to be used for the new religion which means knowledge in the Ahanic language. A ballot was also done to choose the name of the savior. 'Iesu', meaning sexless, was the name choosen, which became 'Jesus' after the Latin prefix '-us' was added. Parts of the lives of Jose the Nazarene, Apollonius of Tyana, and Jehoshua ben Pandira of Egypt were chosen to compose the story of Jesus. The story of the Hindu god, Krishna, and astrological references were also incorporated. The star Lucifer 'The Son of The Morning' from the constellation Scorpio 'The Great Dragon' goes dark during the winter months. The winter months were a time of famine for the ancient Jews and the star Lucifer going dark represented famine to them. This was also incorporated into the story of Jesus. The four points of the cross represent the four classical elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air). The nails in Jesus's wrists, holding him to the cross represent how the flesh keeps us at the mercy of the physical. Jesus's soul represents the fifth element (Aether) which was believed to be the composition of the soul. After enduring the physical, the soul is freed from the body and the elements of the earth.


I'm fascinated by this.

Please, can you direct me to the source(s) for what you have written?


Go to the beginning of chapter XIV on page 261 of this book.

http://www.spiritwritings.com/GatewayOfUnderstanding.pdf



enrico_dandolo
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28 Aug 2012, 7:09 am

... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.



Mike1
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28 Aug 2012, 3:07 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened in relation to Jesus during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.



Kraichgauer
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28 Aug 2012, 3:17 pm

Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.


The existence of the early church from the 1st century on isn't pseudo-history. Neither is it in regard to Constantine choosing Christianity to be the state religion. Admittedly, the idea of him having a vision from heaven prior to defeating his military rival is almost certainly a myth, as he was a life long devotee of the sun god Hyperion, and only sided with Christianity because their numbers could ensure a definite political advantage for him.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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28 Aug 2012, 4:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.


The existence of the early church from the 1st century on isn't pseudo-history. Neither is it in regard to Constantine choosing Christianity to be the state religion. Admittedly, the idea of him having a vision from heaven prior to defeating his military rival is almost certainly a myth, as he was a life long devotee of the sun god Hyperion, and only sided with Christianity because their numbers could ensure a definite political advantage for him.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Shimon bar Caphus better known as Peter (Petros or Rocky) was documented and he was a Witness to Jesus. His cruel execution was documented by the Roman authorities.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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28 Aug 2012, 6:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.


The existence of the early church from the 1st century on isn't pseudo-history. Neither is it in regard to Constantine choosing Christianity to be the state religion. Admittedly, the idea of him having a vision from heaven prior to defeating his military rival is almost certainly a myth, as he was a life long devotee of the sun god Hyperion, and only sided with Christianity because their numbers could ensure a definite political advantage for him.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Shimon bar Caphus better known as Peter (Petros or Rocky) was documented and he was a Witness to Jesus. His cruel execution was documented by the Roman authorities.

ruveyn


Sort of hard to get around that fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Mike1
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28 Aug 2012, 7:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.


The existence of the early church from the 1st century on isn't pseudo-history. Neither is it in regard to Constantine choosing Christianity to be the state religion. Admittedly, the idea of him having a vision from heaven prior to defeating his military rival is almost certainly a myth, as he was a life long devotee of the sun god Hyperion, and only sided with Christianity because their numbers could ensure a definite political advantage for him.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Shimon bar Caphus better known as Peter (Petros or Rocky) was documented and he was a Witness to Jesus. His cruel execution was documented by the Roman authorities.

ruveyn


Sort of hard to get around that fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I mentioned Jose/Joshu of Nazareth, the original Biblical Jesus. I didn't say that a similar man never existed. His story has just been mixed with the stories of other people and mythology has been added. His story is mostly a made up legend like Johnny Appleseed. There was a similar man, but the Bible doesn't tell his story accurately.



Kraichgauer
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28 Aug 2012, 9:49 pm

Mike1 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.


The existence of the early church from the 1st century on isn't pseudo-history. Neither is it in regard to Constantine choosing Christianity to be the state religion. Admittedly, the idea of him having a vision from heaven prior to defeating his military rival is almost certainly a myth, as he was a life long devotee of the sun god Hyperion, and only sided with Christianity because their numbers could ensure a definite political advantage for him.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Shimon bar Caphus better known as Peter (Petros or Rocky) was documented and he was a Witness to Jesus. His cruel execution was documented by the Roman authorities.

ruveyn


Sort of hard to get around that fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I mentioned Jose/Joshu of Nazareth, the original Biblical Jesus. I didn't say that a similar man never existed. His story has just been mixed with the stories of other people and mythology has been added. His story is mostly a made up legend like Johnny Appleseed. There was a similar man, but the Bible doesn't tell his story accurately.


I suppose that's where faith comes into play.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



enrico_dandolo
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28 Aug 2012, 11:10 pm

Mike1 wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
... This was written by a psychiatrist, not a historian. And there are no citations.

That's no source.

The Bible is pseudo history too. There is no proven history of what actually happened in relation to Jesus during that time period. It's just a matter of determining which pseudo history makes the most sense.

The Bible is not history, nor it is pseudo-history. It is a primary source. What you linked to was pseudo-history.

Mike1 wrote:
I mentioned Jose/Joshu of Nazareth, the original Biblical Jesus. I didn't say that a similar man never existed. His story has just been mixed with the stories of other people and mythology has been added. His story is mostly a made up legend like Johnny Appleseed. There was a similar man, but the Bible doesn't tell his story accurately.

Well, then what's your point? Very few sources tell anything accurately, so it isn't a great revelation. If you read my earlier posts, and then yours, you will notice that you just said the opposite of your earlier posts, and exactly the same thing as mine.



graywyvern
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30 Aug 2012, 6:36 pm

John Allegro, who was an eminent linguistic scholar & biblical archaeologist who worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls, came to believe that "Jesus" was just a code name for the sacramental fungus (Fly Agaric) of an orgiastic cult:

http://johnallegro.org/books/sacred-mus ... ross-1970/

This book (along with certain anti-Scientologist writings, owing to their concerted effort to buy all the copies up & destroy them) is as close to a suppressed text as you can find in our open society. (I've seen ten times more copies of The Anarchist's Cookbook, & i've worked in the used book business for 18 years.) Only mycophiles seem to have heard of it, thanks to a mention in the Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs (published by High Times)...

See, the evidence that there were Jesus-cultists in the 1c. AD is one thing, & the precise nature of their worship is quite something else. (Consider the Nag Hammadi Library for the huge range of interpretations & scriptures that were originally extant.) --On the other hand, i think people who disgree with Christianity, in whatever form, should concentrate on its internal contradictions, not the historical record or lack of it. Is reading the Bible a good or a bad thing? It makes some people devote their lives to helping the poor, some become torturers of their children or total strangers of differing opinion, & most it doesn't have any effect on, one way or the other. Personally, i like a great number of books, & find people who only have room in their head for a single book, a tad mystifying. Be that as it may--

By our present documentary standards of surveillance-citizenship, everybody who ever lived prior to the late 19c. is close to a tenuous figment of myth.


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Autinger
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30 Aug 2012, 7:13 pm

Some other famous names from history;

ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir.



BUDDIAH – INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One (Satan), while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.



DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."



HERACLES – GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."



KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.



OSIRIS – EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years.



simon_says
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30 Aug 2012, 9:19 pm

Jesus was mouthy and upset the Romans. THere is nothing magical about that. Rome killed lots of non-magical people for breaking their laws. And rain is wet. Getting killed by Rome was probably easier than not getting killed by Rome. :lol:



enrico_dandolo
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30 Aug 2012, 9:43 pm

@ Autinger: That has to do with how the character of Jesus was treated and exploited. All the precedents and typical themes which modified or influenced christology are not proof of the non-existence of Jesus.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Aug 2012, 10:30 pm

It seems like Jesus is just a manifestation of the sun god.



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31 Aug 2012, 1:04 am

simon_says wrote:
Jesus was mouthy and upset the Romans. THere is nothing magical about that. Rome killed lots of non-magical people for breaking their laws. And rain is wet. Getting killed by Rome was probably easier than not getting killed by Rome. :lol:


That, and the fact that he had run afoul of the temple authorities, who took displeasure to the fact that Jesus had cleansed the temple of money changers - who gave a percentage of their profits to the temple - and who was critical of said temple authorities' ethical failings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Autinger
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31 Aug 2012, 12:35 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
@ Autinger: That has to do with how the character of Jesus was treated and exploited. All the precedents and typical themes which modified or influenced christology are not proof of the non-existence of Jesus.



Wait what?

The whole point is that "back in the days" there were hundreds if not thousands of religions with "holy people" that all worked themselves into eachother's stories. Stop treating "your" story as the one that is right. Believe is something beautiful but ignorance isn't.

Sure the supreme overlord, who knows everything and wants us to live in his ways goes about this by apparently selecting a few humans to speak in his voice? Not to forget how these humans have been changing these supposed "commandments" since day one.

NOT TO FORGET that no two religious people from the same religion share the same ideas about "their set in stone by a supreme overlord" religion.
There'd by NO need for a hierarchy with priests and cardinals voting for who has the best ideas on how to spend the money and "reach more souls" if it was controlled by a supreme being with "the vision".

I'm going to stop posting in this thread because people believing in 2000+ year old stories, totally ignoring -everything- humans have documented since then (and not to forget the LACK of documentation about these so called supreme super powers since the time they were supposedly present), piss me off more than anything and I'm no doubt breaking Code of Conduct rules. (Which when talking about "nonsense" is REALLLY hypocritical but whatever.) Peace.