29 Mar 2009, 10:41 pm
29 Mar 2009, 11:14 pm
DentArthurDent
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
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29 Mar 2009, 11:22 pm
29 Mar 2009, 11:31 pm
29 Mar 2009, 11:38 pm
Concenik
Velociraptor
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
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29 Mar 2009, 11:39 pm
29 Mar 2009, 11:41 pm
30 Mar 2009, 12:26 am
Concenik
Velociraptor
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 441
Location: not in average tinfoil fanlnand teeth optional
30 Mar 2009, 12:52 am
vibratetogether wrote:
Ok, let me set the record straight here, because you're trying to take the high road, and to me that is laughable.
First, you create a post entitled "911 A Proven Fraud". This does not "open space for proper discussion". Your starting position was a logically absurd position. It has not been "proven", to any scientific standard, no matter how strongly you believe, you cannot state this as fact, because it is not.
I think you misunderstood my socialism analogy. It is the collectivist mindset, where you're constantly hanging around each other, sharing the same ideas and enforcing each others viewpoints. I was not saying your politics or theories have any connection to Socialism, but that your method of sharing information is very similar (in it's negative aspects).
I am not the one with stolid preconceived ideas. I am the definition of a person willing to change. However, when your position is one that contains bad information, bad research, and propagandist fear-mongering methods, I'm not going to be open to your position. It is not the content I will judge so much as the tone and method. Your tone is condescending and absolutist (although you would accuse me of the same), and your method is intellectually dishonest.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You say "look, this doesn't make sense." I agree with you. You say "it's conspiracy!". I look at you funny. Occam's Razor my friend. The government is incapable of such a massive cover-up. They're just not that good. If you want to talk about the breakdown of intelligence that allowed this to occur, we can talk. If you want to ponder, with no assumptions being made, as to certain odd coincidences, we can talk. If you want to insert your own storyline and accuse me of being naive if I don't agree, I'm going to shut you out.
Well, let me put it this way. 5 years ago I would tell you I believed it was a false flag attack. The "evidence" was very compelling, and I was in a place where I was very anti-government, almost looking for something like this. As I got older and matured, I wanted to make sure I was not mistaken, so I looked for the opposite side of the story. Not the government story, but the massive research done by people with no reason to take up the government banner. I realized that I had been fooled by creative editing techniques, manipulated facts, and an overall tone of anti-government.
As I gained more and more respect for the scientific method, I became more and more disillusioned with any sort of conspiracy theory. The movement does not apply scientific standards, in fact, it supports those that make grand leaps in logic. Any little tidbit of "evidence", no matter how flimsy or easily dis-proven, is taken as truth because it's what these people WANT to believe.
I can say this with authority, because I've been where you are, but I realize I was wrong. You should too.
First, you create a post entitled "911 A Proven Fraud". This does not "open space for proper discussion". Your starting position was a logically absurd position. It has not been "proven", to any scientific standard, no matter how strongly you believe, you cannot state this as fact, because it is not.
I think you misunderstood my socialism analogy. It is the collectivist mindset, where you're constantly hanging around each other, sharing the same ideas and enforcing each others viewpoints. I was not saying your politics or theories have any connection to Socialism, but that your method of sharing information is very similar (in it's negative aspects).
Quote:
It very difficult to debate so many skeptics - often they have such stolid preconceived ideas and one cannot get past the 'conspiracy theorists are like etc' 'I know I've spoken to them' - seems an odd claim to make when I'm here repeatedly trying to tell you it isn't so each time.
I am not the one with stolid preconceived ideas. I am the definition of a person willing to change. However, when your position is one that contains bad information, bad research, and propagandist fear-mongering methods, I'm not going to be open to your position. It is not the content I will judge so much as the tone and method. Your tone is condescending and absolutist (although you would accuse me of the same), and your method is intellectually dishonest.
Quote:
I suggest then you strip away all the stuff that you find flaky and just ponder for a moment the aspects which you agree would support the theory that there was some form of conspiracy surrounding 911 and/or 7/7 - what do we do with them now - disgard them because they don't align with the idea of the 14 young men who all failed to learn to fly a sessna properly and yet then successfully perpetrated such a grisy act?
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You say "look, this doesn't make sense." I agree with you. You say "it's conspiracy!". I look at you funny. Occam's Razor my friend. The government is incapable of such a massive cover-up. They're just not that good. If you want to talk about the breakdown of intelligence that allowed this to occur, we can talk. If you want to ponder, with no assumptions being made, as to certain odd coincidences, we can talk. If you want to insert your own storyline and accuse me of being naive if I don't agree, I'm going to shut you out.
Quote:
you mention middle ground - where is that middle ground for you, vb? Tbh it's a breath of fresh air that someone actually concedes that some aspects do point to towards the conspiracists' general conjecture.
Well, let me put it this way. 5 years ago I would tell you I believed it was a false flag attack. The "evidence" was very compelling, and I was in a place where I was very anti-government, almost looking for something like this. As I got older and matured, I wanted to make sure I was not mistaken, so I looked for the opposite side of the story. Not the government story, but the massive research done by people with no reason to take up the government banner. I realized that I had been fooled by creative editing techniques, manipulated facts, and an overall tone of anti-government.
As I gained more and more respect for the scientific method, I became more and more disillusioned with any sort of conspiracy theory. The movement does not apply scientific standards, in fact, it supports those that make grand leaps in logic. Any little tidbit of "evidence", no matter how flimsy or easily dis-proven, is taken as truth because it's what these people WANT to believe.
I can say this with authority, because I've been where you are, but I realize I was wrong. You should too.
no high road - I'm not even the OP . I think you might have combined me and the OP together - which is understandable since you seem to think we're all carbon copies of each other troofa borg or somthing
I'm aware of the scientific method - painfully so, we have in house debunkers who make sure of that.
As said - I'm not the OP I never said it was 'the government' - why do people always put their ideas onto others?
I never said you were naive - I think you're getting me mixed up with the OP even though you're replying to my post..tbh
Believe me I know how to use Occam's razor - sometimes- very rarely - it proves to be blunt - things aren't ALWAYS what they seem - but that's just a digression upon the world in general..
I HAVE looked into both sides of the debate - for years also!
You say you won't judge me on this but on that and that - but to my mind you've already clearly proven you've already judged me lol You tell me how I behave and how I disseminate information after only like 4 posts or so! It's not on. I'm not in a cocooned collectivist mindset at all, no matter how many times you insist that it has to be true because you think it is! gimme a break, really
:roll"
vb, I'm concenik not mmstick - two different beings,yeah? I can't really decipher what you intend actually to say to me and what to him..
But I didn't start the thread and I didn't construct it in any certain way from the outset..
Really, the things you say show a lot more conviction to knowing exactly how I tick than I have thus far ever dared to proscribe of you..
Instead of just telling me how I am, how I think, how I integrate with others, how I debate etc etc why not just approach with an open mind and just say hmm here's someone I haven't spoken to before I know nothing of them other than they have said they think it was a false flag.
What bad science, false 'facts' or whatever have i presented thus far that you would claim so? I don't believe I've discussed either any facts or even what I think happened etc - yet you're telling ME what I think!! It's totally untenable. You thought it was a false flag and now you don't -fair enough - but it doesn't reflect me whatsoever.
Let's step back and just take small steps towards the subject free from our own baggage .
As said - I'm not the OP, vb
30 Mar 2009, 3:25 am
Quote:
As said - I'm not the OP, vb Laughing
Not sure how I didn't notice that, that's my bad.
30 Mar 2009, 11:12 pm
31 Mar 2009, 2:53 am
Concenik
Velociraptor
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 441
Location: not in average tinfoil fanlnand teeth optional
31 Mar 2009, 3:02 am
Sand wrote:
It is reasonably sure now that the whole twin tower complex never existed in the first place and the so-called tragedy was an illusion created by the people who do Hollywood spectaculars. Although many people believe they saw the huge buildings well before 9/11 it was actually a construction of discarded copies of the New York Times and The New York Post and The Daily News which spontaneously combusted when an itinerant accordion player couldn't find a proper toilet in the city and urinated on one corner. As he had recently consumed a pizza covered with spices and hot peppers and a can of lacquer thinner (which, unfortunately, eventually proved fatal) the conflagration started when somebody tossed a discarded cigarette on the sidewalk. There is some suspicion that it was George W. Bush who tossed the butt but that has not been confirmed.
That's weird, I thought it was real just like the false flag in London on July 7th, which we 'conspiracy researchers' call 7/7
Goes to show - don't believe everything in the press
