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Vigilans
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17 Jul 2012, 4:58 pm

JWC wrote:
Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


Have you ever looked at "The Haven" or "Love & Dating" ? :lol:


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JWC
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17 Jul 2012, 5:08 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Are libertarians born without hearts?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


No, I thought it a valid question.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well then, yes our blood travels through our veins without the necessity of a pumping apparatus. It's the next stage in human evolution.



JWC
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17 Jul 2012, 5:10 pm

Vigilans wrote:
JWC wrote:
Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


Have you ever looked at "The Haven" or "Love & Dating" ? :lol:


Actually, I haven't. Thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to steer clear of 'em. :thumright:



Vigilans
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17 Jul 2012, 5:12 pm

JWC wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
JWC wrote:
Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


Have you ever looked at "The Haven" or "Love & Dating" ? :lol:


Actually, I haven't. Thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to steer clear of 'em. :thumright:


Good call :thumleft:


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


simon_says
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17 Jul 2012, 5:20 pm

The division of labor is why we have a civilization at all. A group of farmers leveraging the land is why others had time to invent math, astronomy, etc. Without that people would not have had the free time required for advanced subjects.

And it's just difficult for social animals to argue that lone wolfism is the ideal. That's for Tigers. That world would eat us.



marshall
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17 Jul 2012, 5:30 pm

JWC wrote:
marshall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Let me rephrase that, "I want a functioning society, I'm convinced that it can only function one way. Cooperate or I will force you to fall in line."

I never signed a contract, did you?


I didn't choose to be born. I didn't choose my genetic makeup. I can't choose not to eat or drink or breathe. Sorry, life is not a free-for-all. As long as we live in the natural world, people have certain physical needs. Some are more privileged to live in advanced societies and are free to take these things for granted. If you ever wind up trapped on a small life-raft you better bet your ass you're going to be forced to cooperate as a team when the only alternative is death for the entire party.


Are you claiming that because cooperation is often necessary, that someone shouldn't be able to decide for themselves whether or not they choose to cooperate?

Also, we are not currently trapped on a small life boat; why should we act like it?


We kind of are trapped on a small life boat. If you really think about it life is precarious. The planet itself has limited resources.



marshall
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17 Jul 2012, 5:39 pm

JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Are libertarians born without hearts?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


Lacking compassion is not one of the defining trait of aspergers syndrome. I think you're thinking of a different condition that starts with the same two letters but ends with a "hole" instead.



eddyr
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17 Jul 2012, 5:45 pm

Anyone like to affront the point that capitalism stems from liberalism. The notion of free trade, free market, mixed economy, laizze-fair,etc. if so then if we look at the labour government here in England we can see for example the previous labour party under Gordon brown and tony Blair that excessive government spending and borrowing accumulated the largest national deficit in our national history. If so, then isn't the policy of capitalism stemming from liberalism flawed in such a case. Especially if governmental spending is not regulated? Does this mean an introduction of bureaucacy and then subsequently federalist foundations? We can conclude that liberalism isn't maybe hated so much if it's policies are adopted by new-socialist constitutions, evermore, we can see its positive effects for that of Germany's economy to which if we ignore the euro zone crisis has ultimately prospered under well regulated and maintained budget controls. Either way to come to a balanced conclusion on the stigma upon liberalism that is referred by the op it is relevant to analyse and infer upon all the pros and cons of that being liberalist ideas and concepts and to which its effect has proved beneficial.

This is perhaps too grandiose of a task primarialy. As with other ideologies, liberalism comes with its pros and cons. The stigma to which the op protests against is mere inference and environmental backgrounds. If we go 5 years back here in the uk liberalism was seen as a shining light and e proper alternative to labour and conservativism due to its neo-liberalist concepts that appealed to green voters, students and keynesian economists. However I think on the other hand to answer the op question is that the liberals here have failed to deliver and now the electorate hate them and most if not all the electorate have abandoned em frm showing support, this can be shown through the heavy defeat in the vote to introduce proportional representation. And to further corroborate my point, the house of lords reform to which the Tories heavily revolted against . We can see that not only has liberalism been shown to be weak socially, but politically too in failing to propel any of their main policies whilst in government and keeping to their promises.



edgewaters
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17 Jul 2012, 5:56 pm

eddyr wrote:
Anyone like to affront the point that capitalism stems from liberalism.


How would I make a point, feel offended? :scratch:

I'll just go by the last four words I guess.

Liberalism is capitalism, or depending on how you look at it, capitalism is part of liberalism. We now use "classical liberalism" to describe the historic meaning, and "neo-liberalism" to describe (ironically) fiscal conservativism. The language has been butchered by political operatives to suit their need to deceive and obfuscate history, but the history itself can't be erased entirely.

Neo-liberalism certainly isn't Keynesian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism



eddyr
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17 Jul 2012, 6:00 pm

Your right about political language. This is when George Orwell and the semantics of language comes in handy! We are buggered if we don't nationalise the English.

And careful where you tread, as Paul krugman's case puts forward a compelling notion.



Kraichgauer
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17 Jul 2012, 6:46 pm

JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Are libertarians born without hearts?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Are you really attempting an "appeal to emotion" argument on a site for aspies?


No, I thought it a valid question.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well then, yes our blood travels through our veins without the necessity of a pumping apparatus. It's the next stage in human evolution.


Just checking.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Lord_Gareth
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17 Jul 2012, 8:17 pm

So...how would society be organized (and funded) in a Libertarian world? Go ahead and ignore things like modern culture, current political issues, that kinda thing (note: no sarcasm intended) - I'd like to know how the "ideal" setup works under a Libertarian system.


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LKL
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18 Jul 2012, 12:19 am

bizboy1 wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
... and point out the logical inconsistency of your viewpoints compared to your living status...


I don't particularly buy this argument Vigilans, IMHO many if not most people live at least a little bit at odds with their political views as circumstances dictate, and that makes them pragmatic, not hypocrites. I know I could make the argument that I'm prevented by the state and it's enablers from living in the more libertarian (and libertine) fashion that I would prefer, but I'd rather spend my time trying to make the best of the situation I've been dealt and work on improving it (in my eyes) for the future.


Vigilans has no argumentation skills. His logic is so faulty that I'm laughing in my chair as I'm typing this. His logic can be reduced to this:

1) Because you live with your parent's, you cannot argue against welfare.
2) Because you have no life experience, you cannot argue against welfare.

You are mistaken in your paraphrasing. It would be more accurate to paraphrase Vigilans thus:
1)Because you live off of your parents, you are a hypocrite when you claim moral superiority over those on state assistance.
2)Because you have no life experience, your claim of understanding the finances of an individual who admitted to needing state assistance are revealed to be both arrogant and ignorant.



LKL
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18 Jul 2012, 12:31 am

JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Easy to say when space and resources are running out on this blue marble.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There's plenty of ocean.
Last I checked, humans don't have salt glands to produce fresh water from salty. Are you human?



marshall
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18 Jul 2012, 1:10 am

LKL wrote:
JWC wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Easy to say when space and resources are running out on this blue marble.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There's plenty of ocean.
Last I checked, humans don't have salt glands to produce fresh water from salty. Are you human?


I guess he expects people to open their mouths to the sky and prey for rain as they tread water. All because the crew, instead of working together and combining their knowledge to save the life boat and paddle to safety, spent their time arguing over how each individuals contribution would be compensated for in exact currency. Meanwhile God and Satan laughed together at the idiotic folly of selfish humans.



circular
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18 Jul 2012, 3:14 am

Just to make it clear : REMOVING GOVERNMENT = A KIND OF FASCISM

It's simple. If you remove government, you end up with corporations running our lives without any control. And how a corportion works ? It is an asbolute hierarchy where you must obey and that's all.

And what will happen to areas that are not protected by corporations for some reason ? It will be the jungle. When police go on strike, it is a real disaster.

So that's a horrible perspective to remove the government. I would mean that we end up with some kind of middle age fortresses, with poor people making their own law in between.

And on the other side : REMOVING FREEDOM OF ENTERPRISE = A KIND OF TOTALITARISM

Because people are not free anymore and must ask for everything.

So both sides communism and liberalism are OUT OF BOUNDS.

According to liberals, government will always grow. Well, it is the same for corporation. It is the basic law of growth of power. It is natural. So the only thing we must do is to limit governements and limit corporations, just as we limit individuals by law.