Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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AngelRho put up a bunch of testimonials displaying those who succeeded. And, that's great.

1. What is the ratio for those who did succeed as defined by him and/or the average person and those who sunk (homelessness, institutionalized, suicide, etc, etc)

2. What is the ratio for those who are in middle class who were able to pull themselves up to the wealthy class?

3. What is the ratio for those who are in the lower and poverty classes who were able to pull themselves out of poverty and into middle class?

Here are further questions I have.

4. It is true that resources are scarce correct?

5. If number four is true then can anyone and everyone be millionaires let alone billionaires if they did everything the millionaires and billionaires did? Can the vast majority?

6. Can anyone and everyone truthfully pull themselves out of poverty and the lower class into middle class? Can the vast majority?

7. Because of the scarcity of resources is it true that if others have then others must lack? If yes, then why is this true and if no then why is it false?

The answers are irrelevant, though. Personal responsibility is just that: PERSONAL. I could just as easily mentioned someone who loves as a hoarder who gets sick of it and throws away most of her possessions for the sake of living a healthier lifestyle. Nobody is going to give you stickers and pat you on the head and tell you good job simply for doing what you’re supposed to do, anyway. You are relating personal responsibility to material success by using the success or failure of others as a measuring stick. That’s not what it means. All I did was point out a number of folks who did amazing things because they didn’t want to wait on someone else or ask permission to do anything. Probably MOST people in the world are waiting on something that will never come. All I’m doing is pointing out people who didn’t want to wait.

2 and 3: What is the value of being rich or pulling yourself up? And who out there, especially poor people, actually CARE? I should point out that it is much easier to be poor than it is to be rich in this country because it takes no effort to be poor. Rich people have more people to answer to, not to mention the pressure of coming up with good ideas and managing teams of people to realize them is not easy. Poor people may live on the margins and experience difficulty, but even I will admit I lost less sleep being underemployed than I do now. People who have lower incomes looking to build wealth have to face the fact that the investments of time and energy to become rich may not be worth it. An independent janitor with no children and a cheap apartment may technically live below the poverty level but still live like a king. But if he starts a janitorial service and hires several employees, he has to oversee paying taxes, contracts, inventory, etc., and handle hiring/training/firing as needed. And if he has a family and a large house, he’s got all the bills that go with it to worry about. The important point about levels of success and upward mobility is that people do what they love doing and enjoy life. Success always comes at a cost. Is it worth it? When I think of certain acquaintances of mine who were successful in music publishing and I look at where life took them, I don’t envy them one bit.

Take Mike Harlan, for instance. Award-winning Christian songwriter who for several years was head of LifeWay music. I used to regularly attend the Ridgecrest worship leadership conference and later the Gatlinburg conference. I used to have a lot of respect and admiration for the guy until he and his inner circle started giving crazy-sketch advice to wannabe songwriters. Long story short, the quality of LifeWay products/services along with their relevance has been on a steady decline, and rather than SUPPORTING young worship leaders and songwriters, they’ve actively discouraged them. People working in Christian ministry who are miserable where they are, he’d tell us “Bloom where you’re planted.” He’d say “never write songs for your own church.” Translation: LifeWay has you covered, buy more. JW Pepper actually has a website that allows composers to sell their own music, so why is LW lagging so far behind? Why are they so greedy that they’d attack the self esteem of church staff?

LifeWay has been selling off assets left and right and trying to attract tenants to their office building since they have so much space. It’s sad. It really is pathetic. Did Mike Harlan bloom where he was planted? Nope. He quit his big-shot executive job and now directs worship at First Baptist Church in Jackson, MS. In the end, nearly everyone who IS successful and eschews their success show themselves for the hypocrites they are. Do I hate Mike Harlan? No. While a lot of people where shocked by his move, I wasn’t surprised in the least. Not at all. I thought it was a long time coming and I know his life is much better now. I imagine he’s taken a pay cut, but it doesn’t matter as long as he’s happier.

And...I should point out that in this case it is taking personal responsibility to reach for a happier life much more worth living than enduring the misery of corporate life. Some people are cut out for it. Others aren’t. And so you have to leverage what you really want most out of life against the cost and responsibility that goes with it. Not everyone is a CEO. Most people just want the money and freedom; very few can actually handle it.

4. No, it is not true. Even the poorest people in the US have an abundance of food, transportation, etc., compared with many other places in the world. And it’s irrelevant, anyway. What matters is how well you leverage what you DO have access to. Some of the people I mentioned before are not exactly wealthy people. Some are scholars. I even mentioned a feminist (activist). What about Ghandi or King? They didn’t have the same access to resources. What about Mother Theresa? What about inner-city community organizers in the US? For many, access to resources is way beside the point. It is their desire to take action that is the focus. They may or may not GET access to resources as they gain the trust of others (or not), but the availability of resources has nothing to do with it. And...of course...resources aren’t even scarce, anyway.

5. Except people more often choose NOT to. For the vast majority of people, doing what it takes to become super rich is not worth it. Doing what pleases YOU as an individual is what is most important. You don’t have to have a lot of money for that.

6. Everyone CAN. They just don’t. Also, when talking money, you have to talk VALUE. If everyone was a millionaire, that means the value of money would be diluted. An over abundance of anything decreases its value. Think logically: If something had no value, why would you want it? A glut of money would mean there’s nothing in the world actually WORTH doing, so you’d eventually reach an equilibrium where people who are aggressive and hard-working would end up with most of the wealth while lazy and passive people would end up poor again. Think about how many times you hear about people winning massive lottery jackpots. What are they doing now? You don’t know? Me either. There’s a good reason for that. What does that tell you about money when it has no value backing it up? That’s exactly why you don’t hear about so many people going from rags to riches, millionaires, on a fluke. The kinds of things it takes to become one simply aren’t worth it.

7. No. What scarcity? You are making the false assumption that wealth is a zero sum game. It isn’t.

A competitor wouldn’t be a healthy competitor if he or they didn’t try to shut down other competing businesses. It’s dog eat dog out there when the market it healthy. When people do NOT compete, watch out, because nothing good can come of it. In the US, we still have telecommunications monopolies, though not as bad as we used to, along with monopolies on electrical services and education. Public utilities are monopolies. This winter Mississippi had a hard freeze over most of the state. My house in the Delta had a few broken pipes as did many people living in Greenville. The city acted quickly to restore water, of course. But city residents got serious sticker shock when their water bills soared into the thousands. What the water association did was reprehensible, but it shows what happens when you have a city-sanctioned monopoly that doesn’t have to answer to anyone.

In a free market, businesses have the ability to try to eliminate competition. They do this by undercutting prices and offering superior products and services. If they liquidate a competitor, nothing else changes, and they raise prices prohibitively high, people will be unable to afford the product or service. If the business cannot make any money, they are vulnerable to new competitors. They can try to buy the new company and shut it down, as often happens, but where are they going to get the money if they can’t make a profit? Bank loans, sure...but if they still can’t make a profit they’ll go bankrupt. Then how will they stop competitors? This equilibrium prevents businesses from shutting down since they either must compete or die. If they die, they deserve to die.

What happens in America’s reality is that corporate giants cooperate rather than compete. This is a good thing when you have a variety of business interests that support each other, like lumber suppliers and building contractors. It’s a bad thing when businesses agree to stay in their territory, refuse to compete, and fix prices such that they harm consumers. What happened in 19th century America is that the railroad industry had the backing of the federal government to enforce regional monopolies. If you had the money and wanted to build a better railroad, too bad. Sucks to be you. This led to numerous legislative actions that regulate rather than eliminate monopolies, and occasionally you’ll hear things about, say, Facebook acting like a public utility. The problem with Facebook and others is that there are only a few affordable web hosting services that reach a large user base, such as AWES. If you want to create a new social media site friendly to conservative viewpoints and Amazon doesn’t like you, too bad. Unless that changes, Facebook and Amazon WILL crumble. It’s only a matter of time—not because conservatives are so good and holy, but because you cannot BOTH value free speech AND censor users. Doesn’t mean that any website is compelled to give a microphone to those its creator disagrees with, but you cannot hope for long term success when what you do, say, and believe are at odds. If your values and principles are in conflict, you MUST fix the problem that’s causing it.

But there you go...when people like Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter actually COOPERATE for common goals rather than compete in a zero sum game, they can do much better. The automotive industry brings together separate oil and steel industries. They depend on each other. Steel doesn’t care about oil or vice versa. But they both care about automotive and automotive cares about them. So they work together—steel for building cars, oil for fueling them. So you have a host or steel and oil suppliers supporting auto manufacturers which in turn support heavy duty rigs made by Peterbilt, International, Keilworth, and Freighthauler, who sell tractor trailers to all sorts of corporate and independent drivers who haul freight for...pretty much everyone. And the need for land transportation infrastructure supports asphalt suppliers and cheap slag that’s a waste product of steel mills. When the individual driver wins because he can afford to drive any distance to work, he can afford goods that must be transported impossibly long distances, EVERYONE wins. EVERYONE.

And because everyone benefits, I think we can safely put the zero sum myth to rest.

AngelRho, I will respond to all of that later but I want to say something.

After visiting other places one thing that I think is great about the USA is that I can challenge things. I'm allowed to question other people's beliefs, American standards and values. In the USA, I have no fear of arrest but in some places around the world you can be arrested and put into internment camps.

And, what is ironic is I dislike the SJWs even more so then the Christian Conservative Angelicals. Both groups want to clamp down on someone challenging them or their ideologies. I do agree with the SJWs on a number of points though. And, for the most part I'm against gun control.

And, one thing I can say that is great about AngelRho is not once have I heard him say or behave in such a way that he would want to clamp down on me or anyone else challenging him on anything.

One of the things I believe in wholeheartedly is truth in advertising.

If I'm buying a product then I have the right and I am entitled to know what I'm getting for what I am paying for.

Same thing with a college education. College education is a product. When we shell out the money (you or parents), take out student loans or something like the GA lottery pays for your college due to maintaining a B average the buyer has the right to know what they're paying for.

What does the degree do? What does the degree do for me? If one is expecting a job or career out of doing the degree and can reasonably expect it based upon what was presented to him growing up then that is not a sense of entitlement. It's false and misleading advertising by those who surrounded him growing up including his family.

Am I owed a job or career simply by obtaining a degree. Only, if that was explicitly or implicitly promised in the advertising campaign that we all must go to college? Or, money back to the buyer for a misleading product and/or forgiveness of loans that were taken out in bad faith.

Does the degree only present opportunities? What does that mean? What sorts of opportunities? In what way?

Is it just for simply obtaining knowledge and being a better thinker? Then simply state so.

I think if we're not owed truth in advertising especially when it comes to a college education then I think the SJWs should boycott college until everything about what college is, what it does and what it will do for you is made explicit.

I think EVERYONE should boycott college.

For IT I would do certifications instead. And, I would use the projects that you do in your certs as part of your experience. I would create a home lab as well and if one wants to be a coder I would create code in differing languages and put them on github. And, I would join groups on places like facebook and nerd out with them about IT and trade programs with them.

why can't more amuuuuricans see that our higher edumacational system is but a pernicious racket? or is it that they don't want to see?

The problem is we have an artificial inflation of college graduates and this is never ever told to college grads. If one looks at supply and demand one has an extremely high supply of college graduates and lower supply of jobs. In other words the demand for college grads is lower then the supply of college grads. And, a number of jobs require a college degree that didn't require one years ago. That's why it is extremely difficult to obtain a job today especially one that pays the cost of living. High Supply low demand.

And, this is another reason why I see personal responsibility especially for students who went to college and have student loads as a crock. To me, they were given misleading information as they grew up and they took it in good faith.

That’s not personal responsibility, though, nor does that sufficiently prove that it’s a crock. I could probably honestly claim that I was duped by people in a position of trust and that I unknowingly became a victim of predatory lending when I took out loans. My degrees were ultimately worthless and I should be refunded and have the remainder of my loans canceled. If this is true, then no, it’s not my responsibility.

Which leaves the question of what we do NOW. I could do some things, like just ignore that I have loans at all. But then I’d have to worry about liens against my personal property or even having my degrees revoked...which, if that happens, it means my teaching credentials will also be revoked. I’d be unable to ever get a teaching job again. And, of course, any job I MIGHT get I have to worry about a court order garnishing my wages. How and when I DO pay back my loans is a matter of personal responsibility because I’m actively working to keep a steady income and keep my paperwork current. Even if I dislike the situation, even if I don’t feel that it’s entirely my fault, it doesn’t mean I have the luxury of just wishing it all away. It just means I have no one else to rely on but myself to make a bad situation livable. And, TBH, I’m not doing all that bad!

It’s never about taking blame for what’s not you’re fault. It’s about taking charge and keeping control over your own life. There will be times that you succeed and other times you fail, but the focus is entirely on your own will.

Personal responsibility is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

At the extremes you have, on one end - responsibility that is so personal, if someone is holding your head underwater, it would be your "personal responsibility" to learn how to grow gills so as not to drown - and on the other end, the lack of responsibility is so complete that if your house were to catch fire, it would be someone else fault that it burned down, for not telling you in advance not to dry your socks in a toaster, next to the curtains.

People exist on both ends, where they think anything can be overcome with "bootstraps", or they think they are at the mercy of an unknowable mystery, and can't be held accountable for things they had no idea of, not that they ever bothered to try to find out.

Essentially, it comes down to the difference between "someone should have taught me how to swim", versus, "I should have learned how to swim".

Some things are within our control. Some things are not within our control. Some things exist in the middle. the more you try to take control of the things you DO have control over, the more likely you are to HAVE control over them. There are no guarantees. But you can't hit a home run if you never swing the bat, and spend all your time criticizing the quality of the pitch. A boat with nobody paddling will always go where the winds and waters will take it. "Why bother paddling? The boat goes where it wants!" one might say, oblivious to the fact that even the slightest effort can easily overcome the pull of the wind and current, and get you closer to where you want to be, even if not exactly. Sometimes the current IS too strong, the winds ARE too powerful - but when they aren't, progress can still be made. Even if the winds and currents endlessly push you south, you can still paddle south EAST, or south WEST.

Some things you can't choose, like who your parents are, or where you were born or grew up. But some things you CAN choose. And choosing to not make that choice is itself a choice, with a consequence like any other choice. If you don't make those choices, they will typically be made for you. The world doesn't "pause" just cos of someone's indecision.

There are no guarantees in life. But there are things that can improve the odds.

And public schools are a big joke, especially in Texas.

Yes, one should take charge and keep control over one's own life as much as possible. One should make the best decisions as best as he can. And, one should of course make sure one doesn't do illicit drugs, drink or drive or anything like that.

I'm glad you're doing awesome for yourself. By the way, what was your degree in if you don't mind my asking?

Here is where I have an issue and draw the line in the sand. Where I have the issue is this absolutist notion of personal responsibility and that is this idea that others seem to have that if you are poor or in negative circumstances it is your fault and you should've made better decisions.

Negative circumstances implies that you purposely and consciously made a negative decision. With a number of people especially conservative types there are no grey areas with this.

Another thing, what if you have a person who needs help as in guidance and instruction to do so and you have a capitalistic and individualistic society who has the attitude of figure it out yourself yet that person can't because the advice out there that he can access is like reading help from the The guidebook for the recently deceased in the movie Beatlejuice? And, he is doing the best he can with what he understands to be true. Slowly he gains understanding here and there. What does he do? Seek out professional help? With what money? Accept that life is not fair. Okay, let's say this guy decides that enough is enough, plays the victim card (which you're against), claims SSDI and then you have the conservatives and the life is not fair preachers complain and b***h about having to pay for this guy's welfare and sees SSDI as welfare. They're angry and upset they're having to pay for this guy yet refuses to help this guy in any kind of meaningful way or explain anything to him at all. In their own way they're complaining about the unfairness of life as well. How ironic is that?

THANK GOODNESS I had the hope scholarship in my state. Thank Goodness for the republican and conservative governor who had sense on this.

And, those two things is where personal responsibility is a crock and I draw the line in the sand.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 21 Jun 2021, 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

is it true that the public curriculum downplays the evils of slavery?

Ok, this is where you get lost. Personal responsibility is individual-centered, not society-centered. It completely ignores the roles of others in your life as well as the role you have with others. Objectivism emphasizes personal responsibility. I’m not saying people who practice personal responsibility don’t care about others, I’m just saying that concern towards others is beyond its purview. P.R. is only one facet of ethics; the human intellect will typically assimilate a number of things in building a worldview, one of which might include P.R.

Objectivism is a philosophy of rational egoism derived from the real world, hence why p.r. is so relevant. The individual cannot be bothered by others who are angry or upset. He can only worry about others as it suits his own self interest to do so, meaning he WANTS to for his own reasons and for his benefit. The best interests of the individual are often best served when others are doing well, which is where true concern for others originates. If consumers are healthy, the business is healthy, for example. If consumers act like parasites and the individual must violate his principles to survive, then the business will suffer. Personal responsibility means that the individual maintains the initiative in any given situation. He will recognize and satisfy the needs of consumers for as long as it is mutually beneficial (he does what he loves and is rewarded for it) and doesn’t need to compromise or sacrifice. Success or failure is moderated by how much p.r. this individual is willing to take for what he does and for how much p.r. he demands from those he deals with. People who expect much from themselves will often expect much from others. So it pays more to be the kind of person who takes a high level of p.r. because you become a high-value person that other high-value people are attracted to who can benefit you much more than lower-value people. Not all people who show high p.r. and stick to their principles will become richer since consistency with principle is always more valuable than money, but they do have a much higher likelihood of being or becoming wealthy. People who are low p.r. more likely see themselves as perpetual victims and prefer to make others responsible for their own happiness and success. They are jealous of people born into wealth, jealous of people who become rich through hard work and realizing their own ideas, and irrationally suspicious of networks of friends. They don’t understand why people who generate wealth don’t want to cut them in on the deal.

My daughter has been going through a crisis with her friend who has accused her of some things. The friend is a habitual liar and has picked up a number of bad habits. The way they became friends in the first place was my daughter was nice to her and let her hang around. I figured out that the reason we saw so much of the friend was that she was inviting herself to our house, which we didn’t mind, plus we noticed the subtle chemistry between her and our oldest son. We also began to notice neurotic behavior, which we believe the girl honestly cannot help. But we also noticed enabling behavior from her mother, which we did NOT like. So we set special rules for dealing with this person. If she came over, at no point was she to ever be in the the boys’ room, and she especially would not be allowed any time alone with our son. If she spent time with him, it would be out in the open in the company of all the kids in the house (we have a few) and in view of at least one adult. Ultimately it was her bad habits that caught up with her when she began spreading rumors that our daughter had been bullying her. We went to other adults in charge at the community theater and told them to let us know immediately the first sign our daughter bullied this girl because we don’t tolerate that from any of our children. We would correct her and make sure it never happens again. And that’s when the theater people told us they believe our daughter, not her friend.

Our daughter is super smart. She is just that type of person who can touch anything and turn it into gold. She knows instinctively how to work a crowd. She’s popular for all the RIGHT reasons. Her friend is resentful of that, and while for a time our daughter had been a good, grounding influence on her, she did everything she could to drag our daughter down. And the way she glommed onto our son was rather disturbing, too. Aside from needing good therapy, she has a hatred for those who do better than she does. She has a filthy mouth and can’t understand why our daughter won’t drop just one, tiny, little f-bomb. Reason? Because that would be stupid. Stupid people do those things at her age and she doesn’t want to do stupid things. People who have no values or principles will often bully those who do but play the victim when they can’t get their way. Our daughter told her that until she can control herself, they’ll need to keep their distance from each other. Of course, the next thing that happened was my wife had to deal with all the angry text messages from her mother.

Trash is as trash does.

Now, to focus on my amazing daughter: we never focused on the behavior of the friend with her, only her response to her friend. She came to her own conclusions about trying to patch things up. She decided on her own that the best diplomacy was distance after she’d already tried everything else. She made the assessment of whether the friendship was worth hanging onto. Personally, since the girls are working together on a musical, I’d have handled things differently, but everything is going to work out just fine regardless. But that’s personal responsibility.

And that’s going to mean different things to different people in various situations. What’s more important, principles or money? Personal responsibility could mean walking away from the deal of a lifetime because the other party’s money is dirty. Is it more important to make friends or make good friends? You might find it’s best to just be a good listener, superficially validate someone telling you their life’s woes, and make sure to limit contact with that person until you can extract a fee from them while you spend more time with people excited about what’s going on in life. Ill-gained profit is worthless and bad friends aren’t really friends. P.R. will sometimes mean accepting poverty or loss. You will have a higher likelihood of having nice things and a better life, and a high p.r. person will likely be a happier person regardless of circumstance. It’s not a free pass to health, wealth, popularity, or success. It just means that you keep the initiative no matter what life throws at you.

Look up the lyrics to Bluebird by Miranda Lambert. “And if love keeps giving me lemons, I’ll just mix ‘em in my drink.” These aren’t the words of someone who expects the worst out of life.



What do you do when the unexpected happens? Cast blame and wait for others to make amends and settle the score? Or do you adapt and create change to restore your life and your world back to what you wanted it to be? Don’t tell me you don’t have complete control over everything, I already know that. But do you exercise control over things you CAN control to bring about a desired outcome? That is what p.r. is.

...

Our gripe with the education racket is false promises. We were somewhat sold into slavery by our parents. Actually...it’s modern day indentured servanthood rather than outright slavery, but it amounts to the same thing in practice. There’s nothing to be done unless, and good luck with this one, you get EVERYONE with loans to just stop paying. Thing is, WE know how bad a deal it is, so we can pass that along to our children and shut the industry down in the next generation. WE can show our kids that anything worth having must be earned, and we can achieve our educational goals by working to earn the money to pay our own tuition. Sure, it means taking longer just to earn a basic degree, but you also have a longer period of gaining valuable experience that makes you a better employee than a green college graduate with a loan and no idea whatsoever what he’s doing. You have a competitive advantage over that guy. You have more maturity. So you have greater power and force behind your degree than I did just starting out.

Certificate programs are more practical, or you can just go your own way and choose individual courses to shore up any technical weaknesses you have. One of my profs tried to talk me out of taking his course in 20th Century Theory. Truth is I came up short in set theory as an undergrad and wanted to catch up in my masters program. I still occasionally take online courses to stay sharp. The difference between me now and me then is I expect to need a college course periodically, so I plan ahead WHEN I have to take a class and set aside about $1500 to take it. In fact, I can maintain my license as long as I can save up about $3000 over ten years, recertify in my expiring year, and take an extra class immediately after my new license takes effect. I can skip all the staff development crap everyone else has to do and actually learn something that will help me do a better job. Sure, it costs more the way I do it, but it’s better quality AND it’s actually fun. See...nobody tells high schoolers this stuff, and that’s how so many of us get screwed. I’ve gotten smart by working for non-profits, so it’s likely my loans will be forgiven in a few years anyway. Either that or I’ll be in IBR for 20 years and it will all go away then. The catch to IBR is that you have to remain in poverty for that length of time. I don’t EVER want to be poor, so just thinking about my IBR status makes my skin crawl. I try not to. We’re selling a house, meaning we’re coming into enough money to pay off one of our loans and may need to make payments for a year, although on the other hand that all depends on how many children we have (4), so even with the one-time bump in yearly income it still might not be enough to bump us into actual repayment. I guess in the USA it pays to be poor, and that’s one of my greatest fears.

When I was in school, I wouldn't say slavery was ignored----but I would say we students had to do outside research in order to get the "grimy details"----the truth of its impact.

Let's tackle a bit at a time. You asked What do you do when the unexpected happens? And, you gave an either/or. But, why does it have to be either/or. Why can't I do both? In fact, why not take a third option and do something about it and adapt and not only create change to restore your life and your world back to what you want it to be but help others do the same thing as well?

Example: It can be as simple as if you have a younger sibling and your parents are telling them the same BS that they told you that caused issues for call them out on it. Or, pull your younger sibling aside and tell them some basic facts and tell them your story and other younger generations story. Be the black box for those even younger then you who are in middle and high school. Have them actually research the career they want to go into. Have them understand that experience is king and help them find ways to get experience.