Obamacare

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25 Nov 2013, 8:13 am

The White House Council of Economic Advisers released a report showing that health care spending had grown by 1.3% since 2010 (the year the ACA passed). That is the lowest rate on record for any 3 year period and <1/3 of the average since 1965.

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ruveyn
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25 Nov 2013, 1:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Ideologically Obama is no neo-con or any other kind of conservative. But in fact, because of political considerations he has climbed into bed with the Cronies. That is why the ACA works primarily through private insurance providers. Lord Obama would not go so far as to propose a government operated single payer system in which private medical service becomes a niche in the market. Why? Because if he tried it he would get his ass handed to him. So he made nice to the Cronies.

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Last edited by ruveyn on 25 Nov 2013, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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25 Nov 2013, 1:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Ideologically Obama is no neo-con or any other kind of conservative. But in fact, because of political considerations he has climbed into bed with the Cronies. That is why the ACA works primarily through private insurance providers. Lord Obama would not to so far as to propose a government operated single payer system in which private medical service becomes a niche in the market. Why? Because if he tried it he would get his ass handed to him. So he made nice to the Cronies.

ruveyn

I tend to think you're right.

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25 Nov 2013, 6:18 pm

Ideological or not, Obama has kept in place and expanded pretty much all of the Bush era policies when it comes foreign and domestic "security", I could list all the ways but I think you know. Let us not forget if the administration had their way, we'd be knee deep in Syria right now too.

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26 Nov 2013, 1:56 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Dick Cheney endorses Obama's foreign policy; you can't get much more neo-con than that.

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26 Nov 2013, 1:58 am

LKL wrote:

Except that Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan aren't in the minority and don't represent outliers.

Jacoby already addressed Paul Ryan, but as to Ron Paul, he's been very explicit that he doesn't like abortion personally, but would not use the power of the state to enforce his view as policy.

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26 Nov 2013, 7:56 am

Jacoby wrote:

The Obama administration definitely does not want to send troops into Syria. McCain is the head of the group that was calling for boots on the ground over there.

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26 Nov 2013, 12:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Dick Cheney endorses Obama's foreign policy; you can't get much more neo-con than that.

Yeah, but domestically? How much has Mr. Obama cut taxes for the rich?

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26 Nov 2013, 12:22 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Dick Cheney endorses Obama's foreign policy; you can't get much more neo-con than that.

Yeah, but domestically? How much has Mr. Obama cut taxes for the rich?

Excellent point.

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26 Nov 2013, 12:28 pm

Jacoby wrote:

LKL wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Whether Ryan is a libertarian or not, the fact is he certainly sells himself as one, and those who have jumped on the libertarian bandwagon - rightly or wrongly - are publicly embracing him.

Maybe in the world of MSNBC and the Daily Kos but no where else.

Fox News
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1351391938001/
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stoss ... -paul-ryan

Please read my posts.

It was on Fox News. That makes it gospel. :shameonyou:

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26 Nov 2013, 1:28 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think everyone from President Obama to the neocons would find that hard to believe.

Dick Cheney endorses Obama's foreign policy; you can't get much more neo-con than that.

Yeah, but domestically? How much has Mr. Obama cut taxes for the rich?

Domestic issues like taxes and spending take a back seat to "security" and interventionist foreign policy, they support or at the very least tolerate the welfare state. One can't take the rhetoric that these deceivers use seriously, they're all liars trying to win votes. There are no real difference between the "mainstream" of the Democratic and Republican party, they're both support big government and consider the world a battlefield.

Neoconservatism evolved out of the left, the 'intellectuals' that started it all were former Trotskyites and it shows. Irving Kristol described Neoconservatives are "a liberal who has been mugged by reality". They broke away from the left in 60s in reaction to the rise of the New Left and it's anti-war activism and perceived weakness towards Soviet communism.

Interventionists aren't anything new tho, you could just as easily call Obama's foreign policy as Wilsonian if that is more your speed.

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26 Nov 2013, 1:41 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

The Obama administration definitely does not want to send troops into Syria. McCain is the head of the group that was calling for boots on the ground over there.

The plan they put out was nonsensical, it would of been the camel's nose to troops on the ground. What they say the mission will be and what it turns out to be usually are pretty different, look at Libya. The 'no fly zone' was put in place to protect civilians from aerial bombardment and that turned into full fledged involvement in their civil war. Just look at the timing of their concerns, they intervened in Libya when Gaddafi was on the verge of winning, they wanted to intervene in Syria because Assad had taken the upper hand in their civil war against Western backed Islamist "rebels". Syria was no Libya either, war with Syria would of made of sparked full on regional war from Lebanon to Iraq to Iran.

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26 Nov 2013, 2:34 pm

back on topic

Quote:

Unlike drug addicts, alcoholics, or the obese -- all of whom represent higher-than-average medical costs -- smokers are the only such group with a pre-existing condition that ObamaCare penalizes. It allows insurance companies to charge smokers up to 50 percent more than non-smokers for an identical policy, depending on the state and any subsidies the person might qualify for.
...
The study presented three scenarios:
1. The premium for a young, non-smoker earning roughly the minimum wage will cost $708. The same policy for a smoker would cost $3,308, or up to 400 percent more.

2. Before subsidies, a non-smoker who is 59 or older would also pay $708 for a "silver" or mid-level policy. However, a smoker of the same age would pay $5,908.

3. In a worst-case scenario, an older couple who smokes could be "literally impoverished" by ObamaCare premiums, said the report. That couple could pay an $11,352 health care premium, or one-half their annual income of $23,000. By comparison, a non-smoking person over 59 years old would pay 90 percent less, or just $952 after federal subsidies.
...
Thirty-four percent of the lowest-income Americans smoke, compared with only 13 percent of those earning $90,000 or more per year. Those who designed ObamaCare imposed the surcharge hoping it would convince users to quit -- or price them out of the market. It also reflects the higher costs smokers present to insurers.
...
However, some see smoking as an addiction, not a choice, and it is no different than any other pre-existing condition. Most state exchanges ask the question up front, "Are you a smoker?" Experts say users may try to lie, but insurers can file fraud charges if they learn a patient is lying.

link

A lot of people might not care because they don't smoke but they should realize how healthcare will be used to control their behavior. When you invite government into healthcare you invite them into your lives. Do you drink? You pay more. Do you smoke marijuana? You pay more. Do you own a gun? You pay more.

sonofghandi
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26 Nov 2013, 3:23 pm

Jacoby wrote:

When you invite government into healthcare you invite them into your lives. Do you drink? You pay more. Do you smoke marijuana? You pay more. Do you own a gun? You pay more.

Interesting examples considering that it is illegal under the ACA to use any of those things for premium pricing.

As for smoking, it was a concession granted to gain support for the bill. You won't find a single bill that hasn't had a whole boatload of concessions stuffed in. Smoking has been proven in many studies to be the single largest negative factor in preventable death in the US, so I can kind of see how it is relevant to an industry that makes its money via risk assessment. The fact that they are not using even more ways to charge people extra is a good thing, IMO.

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26 Nov 2013, 3:26 pm

Jacoby wrote:

back on topic

Quote:

As opposed to letting money hungry, faceless, soulless corporate entities into your life? Because that's what we've had all this time, and all it got us was being denied coverage for preexisting conditions, life time caps, and being deserted by insurance companies when they are needed the most. I think I'll put my trust in the government.

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26 Nov 2013, 4:04 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

When you invite government into healthcare you invite them into your lives. Do you drink? You pay more. Do you smoke marijuana? You pay more. Do you own a gun? You pay more.

It sets precedence and government always oversteps the lines it draws for itself. This isn't some foreign idea, Obama's "regulatory czar" Cass Sunstein is quite fond of the idea of "nudging" people into behaviors they want.

The surcharge on smokers is unacceptable as it is regardless.

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